Q & A

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All right, well, we do welcome you back this evening. As I said earlier, this is one of those occasions, once or twice a year, when you have a chance to ask the questions that are on your heart and your mind. Now, let me give you a few little ground rules for how this works.

First of all, it is to ask questions, not to make a point. So, if you have a real question, love for you to ask it. Second little guideline is when you get to the mic, you have to introduce yourself.

You have to say who you are, so we know who you are, all right? And then this next one is really important starting even now, if you have a question and you intend to ask it tonight, I want you to go ahead and get up. There are two mics, one in each of the side aisles here. Just go ahead and get up and form a line, because here's how it works. If only one person is at a mic, then I just keep answering that question until somebody else shows up. So, if one person is there, I get through one question, and these next few minutes. But if I know there are more questions, then I know kind of how to pace myself and how to get through them. 

So go ahead. This will be the time. If you have a question, go ahead and start forming a line there at the mics so that you can ask them, and I can get to them. All right? So that's how it works. And well, here we go. I've got, you know, 50 minutes to answer one question. That's good.

My name is s, and my question is, throughout the Bible, there are a variety of commands, but some of them, like the Old Testament sacrificial law, or some things like head covering and foot washing, we don't practice anymore. My question is, first of all, what's the methods we use to determine which commands we're still going to practice, which ones not? 

TOM PENNINGTON: We will start with that question. That's a great question, and it's a great hermeneutic question that all of you need to wonder about. You know, how do we know which commands to obey and which not to obey in the Scriptures? So let me just start with, when you look at the Old Testament and at the Old Testament law, you see three basic categories of laws: you see moral laws, that is, those laws that are a reflection of the character of God that never change. It's never right to lie. Why is that? Because that is a reflection of the very character of God who is truth. And so, you have the moral laws. 

And I know there are those who get uncomfortable with these categories. I think if I had time, I could take you through and show you. I think there's evidence in the New Testament for how this works. But let's just break it up first. So moral laws. Secondly, there are civil laws. That is, there are laws that are spelled out as to how things were to function in Israel and the penalties for breaking those laws.

So, even in the case, for example, of a moral law like adultery, there was also a civil aspect, and that is, in ancient Israel, what was the penalty for that, the breaking of that law to be? That's a civil aspect of the law. So, you have the moral law, you have the civil law.

The moral law, let me just make sure you understand what I mean by that. It is the Ten Commandments, the ten words given at Sinai, which are really just hooks on which to hang other parts of God's law, so that you sort of have a matrix for remembering God's law, the categories into which God speaks, that's the Ten Commandments. And Christ summarized the Ten Commandments, as you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. That's the moral law of God. 

The civil law, those laws that govern the workings within the nation of Israel and included penalties for various laws, including even the moral laws. 

And then finally, you have the ceremonial laws. You have those laws that were tied to the sacrificial system, to the feasts, and all of those things. 

So, you come to the New Testament, and you say, how do we know what commands to keep? Well, let's start with the moral law of God.  First of all, Jesus underscored that we still have a duty and responsibility to love God with all of our heart, to love our neighbor as ourselves. In addition to that, all but one of the Ten Commandments is repeated in the New Testament and affirmed as something that we are to keep. Paul does that in 1 Timothy 1. Paul discusses the law in a couple of different places, including in Romans, Galatians, and so there are obligations for us to keep the law of God. 

Now, I said “nine.” What's the tenth one that isn't mentioned, that isn't reiterated in the New Testament? That is the keeping of the Sabbath, and I'll come back to that one in a minute. So, the New Testament affirms that we are to keep the moral law of God. Paul reiterates that the law is good and holy and just in Romans 7. He says that those who break the law are to be disciplined in the church, those who in an unrepentant way continue to abide in sin, they are to be disciplined, so the moral law of God abides. It's a reflection of the character of God. That is very clear in the New Testament.

So, let's go then to the civil law. Are we to practice, are we to execute, for example, those who commit adultery? The answer to that is no. Why is that? Because those were civil laws that dictated how things were to function in ancient Israel. Where does the responsibility, where does the New Testament place the responsibility for the outworking of civil law today? It's Romans 13. God has given government, all governments, even pagan governments, He's given the responsibility to put in place and to execute the civil law. So that's Romans 13.

So, you have clearly the moral law of God reiterated. We know where to keep that. You have the civil law which is now transferred from the nation of Israel and all of the laws that pertain to the people who live there to our government. Our government has that responsibility, and we are to submit to them, and they are to execute God's justice. They are, you know, Paul says they are, you know, a sword in the hand of God to carry out God's penalties on those who break the civil law. 

And then the third category is the ceremonial law. Turn with me to, this is a really important question. You have this dealt with in a couple of passages, but turn to Colossians. Colossians chapter 2. Now the book of Hebrews, of course, deals with the ceremonial law at length, particularly the sacrificial system, and says it's fulfilled, it's complete in Christ. But here in Colossians 2, Paul makes it even a little broader. Colossians chapter 2, and he talks about in verse 13, 

When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

So, he's saying we have been forgiven of all of our violations of God's law, and specifically there, I think he's referring to the moral law of God. 

But what about all that ceremonial stuff? Well, listen to what he says in verse 16. In light of what Christ has accomplished, “Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to”—and here we go, here are those ceremonial laws—“food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day.”

Now, I used to struggle with how nine of the ten commandments could be reiterated in the New Testament, but the tenth isn't, the Sabbath day. And the reason for that is because the command itself remains, the responsibility to worship, to work six days, worship God each week. That responsibility commands. That responsibility is still in place. However, it's changed. The Sabbath is no longer over us. It is part of the ceremonial law, the seventh day worship. Notice what he says here: “a festival, a new moon or a Sabbath day.”

In the Old Testament, when those three phrases occur together, it's always talking about the annual feasts, the monthly new moon festivals, and the weekly Sabbath. These are not special Sabbaths, as our Sabbatarian friends would like to argue. Now watch what he says about all the ceremonial law: food, drink, festivals, all of that. He says these things “are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.” Now look in the margin of your Bible. If you have one that has notes in the margin, you'll see that the actual word for “substance” is “body.” It's a great picture. He says the ceremonial law was like the shadow of Christ coming. It helped us see something about the reality that would be Christ. But Christ is the body. So, when the body shows up, you don't grasp at the shadows anymore. That's the point. The ceremonial law has been completely fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

So that's the big picture. Now, when it comes to specific commands, that becomes more difficult, right? I mean, looking at individual ones. And that's something we'd have to work through individually. But if you keep those categories in mind, if you keep the fact that the New Testament reiterates the moral law and lays it upon unbelievers as a way to show them their sin, right? Galatians 3, it's a tutor that leads them to Christ. It lays the moral law on us as believers, not as a way to earn our favor with God, we have that in Christ, but rather as a way to shape and direct our obedience. This is what God still expects of us. The civil law, we're now responsible to government, to our government. And then finally, you have the ceremonial law, which has been completed. The body is Christ. We don't need to grasp the shadows anymore.

So, that's the big picture of that, okay, Judah? Thank you, sir.

My name is JOHN RUSSELL. I just had a question about David when he was—right before he became king and when he was king. There was a time where he was with the Philistines and working for them, so at least it appeared. But he would go out on raids, and he would wipe out certain villages that were Amalekites.

And then later on—you know when he—after he became king, I think it was Edom, he went in there and he had three lines of men and he killed all, two of those lines and left one of them. How does all of this fit into our understanding of David maybe being the apple of God's eye and that sort of thing?

TOM PENNINGTON: Yeah, I think you have to understand that whenever you're dealing with narrative, and this is a bigger picture, you know, when you are reading the Bible and you're reading narrative, you have to be very careful to differentiate between that which God allows and records as opposed to that which God commends or requires. For example, the classic example, of course, is Gideon's Fleece. You know, a lot of people read Judges, they see Gideon, he put out this fleece, and they think, well there we go. You know, I need to put out a fleece.

In fact, when I was in college, we had to interact with a young man. When I was a leader in my, I think it was my senior year, there was a man in our dorm who believed in fleeces because he read the story of Gideon. And his fleece, I'm not making this up, was a gumball machine at the end of the hall. And so, if he had to make a decision, like, you know, he needed to decide what he was going to do, he'd go to the end of the hall, and he would say, Lord, if You want me to date Susie, help me to get a yellow gumball. I'm telling you, this is true. I'm not making this up. And he'd put his coin into the gumball machine, and if he got a yellow gumball, he dated Susie, and if he didn't, he didn't.

And so where did he get that? Well, he got it from reading narrative and thought, you know, well, it worked for Gideon. You know, my response to that is, have you actually read the story of Gideon?

God gets on to Gideon for his lack of faith. It's not a good thing, it's a bad thing. So, my point in saying that is when you read any narrative, you're going to find, except for the Lord Jesus, of course, you're going to find flawed people at times making flawed decisions.

And so, when we look at David, I think there are times in David's life, we know, of course, there are times when he sinned, it's clearly recorded. There are other times when events are recorded in David's life that are neither commended nor are they in some way pointed out as evil. But we should never read it with the idea that because it's David, it's right. Okay? No. The question is, is it right before the Lord?

I personally think, and I've taught through some of that section in the past, I personally think some of the decisions he made through that period of his life were a lack of trust in God. God made him distinct promises, and I think, so you have evidence of that in, as his story unfolds. So, I think that's how you reconcile it. I think you recognize its narrative, and you recognize that the Holy Spirit is accurately recording the decisions that David made. 

So how do you know when something in narrative is something you should follow? The answer is, when the narrator, when the Scripture, the Scripture writer says this pleased the Lord, or this was good in the sight of the Lord, then you have your signal. This is something commendable. This is something that may have some legitimate application to me. But if it's not that, then be careful, because the characters in the Bible apart from our Lord are flawed characters, and they make at times unwise, and at times sinful decisions.

Hey, Pastor Tom. My name is JACK WALLER. Oh, that's pretty close. This may be a little bit elementary, but I was just curious why when we pray in devotion, and when we pray throughout the day even, why we primarily address God the Father and not Jesus the Lord.

TOM PENNINGTON: Yeah, no, that's a great question. And I think the reason, let me start with the reason why we do that primarily. When you read the Scripture, and particularly in the New Testament, both the example of Christ, as well as the example of the apostles, you find most often the prayers addressed to the Father, through the Son, by the means and power of the Spirit. So that's the pattern. Our Lord Himself, right? Matthew 6. And we're going get there soon. People don't believe that, but we really are. When you get to the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says, pray then in this way, “Our Father who is in heaven.”

So that is the normal pattern, and that's how we pray most often. When I pray, when I'm leading, when I pray in my own heart and life, most frequently I'm addressing the Father. However, it's important to remember that there are prayers in the Scriptures that address the Son, and even one in particular that addresses the Spirit.

And so, it is acceptable to address our prayers at any given moment to the Lord Jesus, as you hear me sometimes do, or to the Holy Spirit. That's perfectly legitimate. Why is that? First of all, because we have patterns that are commended in the Scriptures by the apostles. Secondly, it's because all three members, all three persons of the Trinity are God, equally God. And so, it's perfectly legitimate to express our praise, our adoration, and even our request to the member of the Trinity that is particularly dealing with that issue.

I'll give you an example. One of my favorite passages in the Scripture that sort of governs me and my ministry, how I think about my ministry here at Countryside, or wherever I am, is 1 Corinthians 12. There are three verses there where Paul is talking about spiritual gifts. And this makes sense. 

In fact, turn there with me. Let me just show you this, because this will help you see kind of how to think about this. This passage isn't about prayer. It's about ministry, but I want you to see this. First Corinthians 12, verse 4, he's laying down the framework for understanding spiritual gifts. He's going to correct the abuse of tongues in chapter 14. But as he lays down the framework, he says in verse 4, “Now there are varieties of gifts”—of spiritual giftedness—"but the same Spirit.” So, the Spirit gives the gifts. “And then there are varieties of ministries,”—varieties of ways to use that giftedness—“and the same Lord,”—speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ. And “There are varieties of effects”—or outcomes of our ministry—"but the same God,”—here meaning the Father—"who works all things and all persons.” So, while God is one, He has one will, nevertheless, the Scriptures teach us to think of the Father initiating the works of the Trinity, the Son accomplishing the works of the Trinity, the Spirit applying and perfecting the works of the Trinity.

So, if I'm praying about these things, I'm talking to the member of the Trinity that's designated this way. So almost—I wouldn't say every Sunday, but many Sundays—my Sunday begins with saying, you know, Holy Spirit, you gave me the giftedness that I have. Use that giftedness today for the benefit and blessing of Your people. Lord Jesus, you gave me this place to serve You. You gave me this opportunity at Countryside. Help me to be faithful here. Or when I was out at Shepherds, I spoke in a couple of events. Jesus, You gave me this opportunity.

There are varieties of ministries with the same Lord. So, I'm talking to the Lord Jesus. And then when it comes to the outcome, the results of that, here Paul says there are varieties of effects or results with the same God, the Father, who works all things and all persons. So, I'm saying, “Father, You use the gifts the Spirit gave me, the place the Lord Jesus has placed me, You use that for the good and benefit of Your people.” 

Does that make sense? So, as you see a point of emphasis in the Scripture, something that the Father is doing, something that the Son is doing, something that the Spirit is doing, that becomes a framework then for expressing ourselves directly to that member of the Trinity. But ordinarily, we are taught to pray as our Lord taught us, to the Father, through the Son, and by the means of the work of the Spirit through our hearts. Romans 8, the Spirit intercedes for us even as we pray. Yep, you're welcome.

Yes, sir. Hi, Pastor Tom. My name is DAN MANUPPELLI. Thank you for holding these Q & A's. My question is in regard to the season of Lent. Are there components of Lent that a Christian can or should participate in? Or should we, as Christians, disassociate with it altogether?

TOM PENNINGTON: Yeah, you know, that's a great question. There have been debates about this, as you know, throughout church history, even among the Protestant church. The Lutheran church tends to be more oriented to the church calendar than other of the reformers. But even, you know, John Calvin, there was some of that. I'm not sure that Lent was a part of that, but some parts of the church calendar. 

I would say this. When you look, particularly at Lutheranism and at Luther, you will find, first of all, he was a flawed man. We all know that. We all are. He was at times more flawed than others. But when you look at how the Lord used him, it's remarkable, not how far he didn't go, but how far he went. I mean, to see a man who grew up, when Martin Luther was—he writes about his time as a monk—he was a monk in a monastery before he ever knew there was such a thing as a Bible. He thought the Bible were the little publications that came out each week, the postils that were, you know, that was the Bible as far as he knew. But he stumbled in the monastery, in the library, across the Bible. And he, for the first time, understood that and, of course, began to study it and came to a full and complete understanding of justification by faith alone. So, we treasure that, we admire that. 

But I think what you see with Luther, and I think there were others influenced in similar ways, they struggled to let go of some of the things that have been a part of their past life and Catholicism. And so, you see a relationship to some of those things that personally I'm uncomfortable with. 

Now, let me back up, though, and give you the big picture. And this applies in so many areas of life. So, listen carefully. Just talking with some other guys about this past week. When there are moral decisions that have to be made, there are only three categories. Okay, first category is, “Thus saith the Lord, thou shalt.” Chapter and verse. That's the first category. And I'm not talking about maybe that passage says that. I mean, it's like definitive. Ten out of ten people say that's what it says. Second category is, “Thou shalt not, sayeth the Lord,” chapter and verse. So, thou shalt, thou shalt not. That's the second category. Third category, if it doesn't fall into either of those categories, and it's a moral decision like this one, it falls into what the Bible calls issues of conscience. 

And so, that you have two sections of the New Testament intended to help us know how to make decisions in issues of conscience. You have Romans 14 and 15, and you have 1 Corinthians 8 to 10, both of those passages dealing with how to make decisions about issues of conscience.

You know, a lot of Christians, when they talk about Christian liberty, it's like, well, that means I can just do whatever I want. Oh, no, that doesn't mean you can just do whatever you want. Those passages dictate how you're to use that liberty. You're to be careful not to make choices that are going to cause you to sin, going to cause somebody else to sin, going to in some way demean the gospel, etc. So, there are guidelines for making those decisions. 

The same thing holds true not only for individuals, but for homes. In my home, my conscience determines what our family is going to do on those issues of conscience. You know, I told my daughters when they were growing up, you know, the Scripture says for a woman to be modest. When you're in my home, my conscience is going to decide what modest means, and that's how you're going to dress. When you're on your own, that's between you and the Lord. And so, in my own personal life, there are issues of conscience and I have to make a decision. In the home, as a father, I have to make those decisions. And in the church, the elders of the church make those decisions. Okay? So, back to your question.

As you sort through those issues, the issues of parts of the church calendar, the historic church calendar that you're going to use or not use, that's how you have to think it through. But I think you have to be really careful, particularly if your background, and many folks in our church, their background is in Catholicism. I think you have to be really careful, because it's very easy to be pulled in and swept in back to Catholicism by some of those practices.

So, personally, I don't and wouldn't encourage others to, and I think the concept of, you know, the self-discipline that says I'm not going to give my body everything it wants, 1 Corinthians 9, I'm going to buffet my body. That's not buffet my body, it's buffet my body. That principle of making sure my mind governs my body and not vice versa, I think that's helpful year-round and not a certain time of the year.

And I think you make those choices in small ways day by day that say, I'm going to tell my body what to do. So yes, my body is tired, but guess what body, we're getting up this morning to spend time in the word of God and prayer. My body, you know, wants something that God has forbidden. I tell my body, no, that's not right. And we're not going to go there. So, I think it's better, frankly, rather than one season of sort of, you know, I'm going to somehow deny myself.

And you know how that works. I mean, legalism is an amazing thing. Most people who, well, yeah, I probably should say most. Worldwide, I think most people who do that, it's kind of like it’s bargaining with God. It's like, okay, God, I'm going to give up this because I want this from You. Or it's, you know, Lord, I've never smoked, but I'm going to give up smoking this month for You, for Your glory.

So, you see what I'm saying? That's how legalism works. It's far better, I think, to regularly discipline yourself to deny those things, not good things. God gave us, you know, 1 Timothy 6, God freely gave us all things richly to enjoy. He gave us a world full of good things that we can enjoy. But I think we have to be careful not to allow our body free reign where it gets everything it wants. I think there's benefit even in daily discipline of that.  So that's your question. There's none of us, sayeth the Lord, just be careful. I don't I wouldn't recommend it. I don't think there's as much benefit as the daily discipline of your body. Thank you. 

Hi, my name is SANG PARK. I'm fairly new to Countryside.

TOM PENNNGTON: Sam, you said?

SANG PARK: Sang. Great. So, my question is regarding death. So, in the Bible, we hear about sheol being a place of the dead. We hear about when Christians die, they fall asleep, and we hear about also in the rapture that the dead are raised and then brought and come up with the saints who are alive. So, my question is, I'm not sure if you've gone over this before in your preaching, but what happens to a Christian when they take their last breath on earth?

TOM PENNINGTON: No, I have. There are several times that that comes to light. I think I did a message called A Christian's Perspective on Death. I think it's called. You can find it on the website. But let me give you the big picture.

When, let's start with how we're made by God. The Scripture is very clear that we're two-part beings. There is a material part of us and an immaterial part of us. There is a body and a soul. Because of the fall, Romans 5, death entered into the world. Death is part of the curse. That was not God's original plan. It is, Paul says, death is the last enemy that will be destroyed. Death is not a friend. Death is an enemy. And so, the good news is Christ has defeated that enemy. But it's an enemy. It does something God never intended. It divides us. We were made to be body and soul. And death separates the body and the soul. 

So, what happens at death? So, let's talk about the two components. And let's talk first about unbelievers. Scripture is clear that at the very moment of death, the moment the body stops functioning, a person who has not repented and believed in Jesus Christ opens his eyes, Jesus tells the story in Luke 16, He opens his eyes in hell, in torment. That's the reality of what happens to an unbeliever when they die. Conscious, eternal torment from the moment of death.

Now, hell is an intermediate place because in Revelation chapter 20, all of the dead who are unbelievers are raised for a judgment called the Great White Throne of Judgment, Revelation 20, you can go listen to the message I did on that passage. And at that judgment, the unbelievers are raised, they're reunited with bodies, they are judged according to their works, and their suffering eternally will be related to their works in life. And they are thrown into what John calls the Lake of Fire. So, hell is a holding place, it's an intermediate place. Jesus called it Gehenna, and Jesus had more to say about hell than anyone else.

But at the moment of death, an unbeliever, Luke 16, awakens his eyes in hell, in torment. And he is there until the resurrection of the unbelieving dead in Revelation 20 and judged and then thrown, given a body that will endure the suffering of hell forever or the lake of fire forever, and then he's thrown into the lake of fire to suffer forever. That's the unbeliever.

Let's go to the believer, the good news. Paul says to the Corinthians, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. So, the very moment—he uses an analogy in 2 Corinthians 4, he uses the analogy in 5 of a tent. He says our bodies are like the tent. Of course, Paul was a tent maker, right? He actually—that's how he helped fund some of his ministry. And so, he made tents, and he likened the body we live in to a tent. And he says, in fact, let's turn there. Look at 2 Corinthians, verse 16. Second Corinthians 4, verse 16, “Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying”—that's the reality, from the very moment that we are born, really, the process of decay begins—"yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.”

And he goes on to talk about the glory of eternity. But notice what he says in verse 1 of chapter 5, “We know that if the earthly tent which is our house”—some of our bodies—"is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” So, what he's saying is this: At the moment of death for a Christian, this temporary tent that we live in, it's good for, you know, Moses said it's good for 70-80 years on average. And it's gone. It wears out, it's torn down. He goes on to say here, we will have a building. I love the analogy, right? Right now, we have a tent. Someday we're going have a permanent house. He means an eternal body, a body that isn't temporary.

And then he goes on to describe that reality. And notice verse 8. He says, “We are of”—let's go to verse 6, “Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord, for we walk by faith and not by sight—we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.” For the believer, that's the reality.

The moment we are absent from our bodies, the moment my body takes its last breath, this almost happened to me last summer, at that moment, if the Lord hadn't chosen to leave me here, then, and my body was torn down, my body died, at that very moment, I would have been in the presence of the Lord Jesus, at home with Him. And that's true for every believer. To be absent from the body, Paul says, is to be present with the Lord.

So, that's the reality. Now, the Bible uses for believers, uses the analogy of sleep. It doesn't mean like your soul is asleep. It's like you're not conscious. No, we are fully conscious. We're in the Lord's presence. Sleep is a description from the standpoint of us who still are alive. We look at that Christian who died, we look at their body, and it's like they're sleeping. And it uses that analogy to remind us it's temporary. You know, when somebody's sleeping, they're going wake up and we're going get back, we're going have time together again. The same thing is true for a believer who's died. It's like they're sleeping to us, but someday we'll be reunited with them.

All right? And Paul describes that in 1 Thessalonians 4, where he says, “win the Lord Jesus.” So, let's go big picture. I die; you die, if the Lord doesn't return, the mortality rate's 100 percent, we're all going to die. At the moment our bodies stop working, our souls are with the Lord. Our bodies, that material part of us, they're going to do something with it. You know, they're going to bury it in the ground. And Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, that's like a seed planted. And from that body I have now, that's planted in the ground, the Lord Jesus, when He comes, will bring my redeemed soul with Him. And in that moment, He will raise my body like a seed planted in the ground. He will recreate my body from that old body, and He'll make it new. Not a temporary tent anymore, but a permanent house that I'll live in forever that won't decay. And he describes that in 1 Corinthians 15. You can read it. It's a beautiful chapter about the resurrection body.

But, and then I'll be forever with the Lord, reunited, body and soul forever. Okay, so death isn't a friend in the sense that it's part of the curse, but the Lord Jesus defeated death. And let me just end with this. Revelation 1:18, Jesus says, “I was dead, and . . . [now] I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death” and the grave. You know, I have keys in my pocket right now. These keys say that I have ownership of the things that these keys are to, or at least temporary ownership in the case of my office. So, the same thing that the Lord Jesus is saying, I have the keys of death and the grave. I have authority over it, and He's defeated it. And for us who believe in Him, we don't have to fear it, okay?

My name is JARED HILLER, and I've been, ever since the essentials conference a couple of weeks ago, I've been about the order of service in churches. And I was like, wondering, what is the purpose slash scriptural reason behind having special music in a church, such as Countryside or another church?

TOM PENNINGTON: Sure. Well, I mean, what you have is, let's back up and do the big picture first. When we talk about the elements of worship, it's important that we understand they've been prescribed by God. We don't create worship. In fact, the first commandment, we talked about the

moral law of God a few minutes ago, the first commandment is what? That we're to have no other gods before God. We're not to worship anyone in addition to, above, besides, anyone except God.

The second commandment says that we're not to make a graven image. That is not a command that simply duplicates the first. In other words, it's not saying the same thing. It's saying something different. It's saying that I don't get to decide, and our churches don't get to decide how we're going to worship God. We can't decide the way we're going to worship Him, because when we do that, we risk idolatry. We risk, in some way, defaming God. So, we follow what has historically been called the regulative principle. That is, our worship is regulated by what God has prescribed. Martin Luther and the Lutherans have said, if it's not forbidden in the Scriptures, then it's acceptable. We say no. We go by the regulative principle: unless it is commanded in the worship of God, then it's not acceptable for us.

Now, when you talk about the elements of worship, there are seven of them. Seven prescribed things that are supposed to happen when the church gathers for worship. And all of them relate, in some way, to the Scripture, right? First of all, we are to read the Scripture; we are to pray the Scripture; we are to sing the Scripture; we are to teach and preach the Scripture. We are to give so that the work of the Scripture can go on here and around the world. Then there are two ordinances that are in addition to those five things, and that's baptism, which we're commanded to do, and the Lord's Table. So those are the seven prescribed elements of worship.

That's why we do those things. Announcements isn't one of those. We used to include the announcements as part of the service, and I think that's acceptable. I don't think there's something wrong with that. But now we've intentionally made it so in the morning services, the announcements come first before our worship begins. And that's just to illustrate to people that everything that happens once we open with prayer, all of those things have been prescribed by God and worship.

So, one of those elements is music. I would encourage you, Jared, to go listen to—I did two messages in a series on worship, on music and worship. I don't remember the title off the top of my head, but if you have trouble finding it, you just contact me, and I'll get you connected to those. But our music, why we do what we do in music, is governed by the Scripture. We have a stated philosophy of music. You can read sort of the thumbnail sketch on our website. There's a philosophy of music posted there. But when you look at how music was used, you know, there are certain commands in the New Testament, and we look at how music was used in the Old Testament.

There are some of our brothers who don't believe that some of those elements of music in the Old Testament should be today. For example, there are some who believe there should be no instruments at all, only the human voice used in worship. There are others who would prescribe certain kinds of instruments, etc.

We believe based on the Old Testament record and pattern that it is acceptable in the worship of God to use all kinds of instruments and to have different types of music, psalms, hymns, spiritual songs, as Paul puts it in Ephesians. And so where does special music factor in? Well, when you look at the Old Testament, you look at how the worship there was led, you'll find that there were choirs and there were instrumentalists that led.

Sometimes, and you can read about it, you'll hear it in that message that I'm talking about, this couple of messages. Sometimes they accompanied the congregation as they sang to God. Other 

times it appears they were singing or leading separate from the congregation. Sometimes, antiphonally, one would sing and then the other would sing, one would sing and then the other would sing. Sometimes it appears there was a separate number in which they set forth the praise of God. So, we believe that special music in the church is consistent with that pattern.

And that's why, as elders, we believe it's acceptable.

JARED HILLER: Thank you, Pastor Tom.

TOM PENNINGTON: Yeah, you're welcome.

Hi, Pastor Tom, I'm BRIAN CUMBERLEDGE. I have a two-part question regarding praying. One is, when you know you have unbelievers and believers together in a setting, should we alter our prayer? For example, “our Father” versus addressing, say, “God.” And other components in there, should we include a part of the gospel in the prayer or don't? That's, you know, maybe too forward.

Second part is, when a child, for example, our granddaughter, at home, she often wants to pray. And in public, when we have a group together, she wants to pray. How should we handle that?

Should we give her any advice beforehand? Or should we also pray in addition to that, her?

TOM PENNINGTON: Sure. You may have to remind me of the second part, but let's start with the first part, Brian. The answer to your question is yes and no, as far as altering your prayers.

If you think there is some temptation on the part of the unbelievers present to think that you are including them as true believers, then you can slightly alter it. Instead of “our Father,” you can say “Father.” You don't have to radically alter your prayers and address God in some different way. He's still your Father, and it's acceptable to do that. You could choose to do it otherwise, but I don't think it's incumbent upon you to do that. The main thing—I know what you're trying to avoid, and that is you're trying to avoid giving unbelievers who are praying with you the idea that we're all good, that God's good with us, we're all going to get there. And you do need to be careful in what you say in your prayers to make that differentiation. 

What I'll do is something like this: “Lord, thank you that for all of us who have believed in your Son.” You know, when I do, for example, a funeral, and I know there are going to be a lot of unbelievers there, that's more the tact I'll take. It's always differentiating between those who have repented and believed, but those who love You. You know, I'm going to do things like that to make it clear that these things I'm asking God to do, He does for those who are His own. And so, I'll say that “Lord, thank You, that for Your own, for those who have repented and believed in Your Son, that You are gracious to us, that You've,” you know, etc. You get the idea.

But I don't think you need to address God differently. Just make sure that as you're praying, you don't give that impression—we're all one big happy family, and everybody here, regardless of their relationship to Christ, you know, can plead with God.

Now, let me say, there is an order of magnitude. So, if I'm in a crowd, and everybody's there, but I wonder about one or two, I'm not going to be quite as careful with that as I would be. For example, when I pray here, I know when I pray in our church that mostly there are believers here, but I know there are also unbelievers. Some of our children who haven't yet trusted in Christ, spouses, family or friends who are visiting. So, but if I know most are believers, then I'm still going to take it that way and pray to God that way, and yet at some point I'm going to make that differentiation usually in a prayer. But the more that changes, the more the group changes, the more sensitive I'm going to be to that.

If there are just a couple of us who are believers and a whole bunch of unbelievers, then that's going to have a different tone and sound. And there are those subtle ways to do it. You know, “Thank You that for all who have believed, all who love You,” this is true. And that way, you're not giving false encouragement and hope to those who are not in Christ. 

As far as children, you know, I think we encourage our children to cry out to God, their Creator. Don't assume that means they're believers. Usually, they're not at young ages. They haven't understood yet fully their sin. They haven't understood the gospel. But everything good that directs them toward God, that's our goal as parents, right? Is to shepherd our children toward God. And so, anything I can do to shepherd them to God, their Creator, I'm excited about doing.

Now, that doesn't mean that I'm going to say to my five-year-old who says, you know, Daddy, I just prayed to receive Jesus. Oh, that's wonderful. You're a Christian forever. We're going to write that in the front of your Bible. But nor am I going to say, oh, there's no way. You're five years old. You're not a Christian. You know, no, I'm going to say, “Sweetheart, that's wonderful that you're crying out to God. You keep crying out to God. You keep seeking Him, because He will be found by those who seek Him.” So, I'm always encouraging that work of God in their hearts and not discouraging it, but I'm also not giving them false hope. I'm being really careful to do both.

So, a child praying, absolutely. Our children prayed with us every night. You know, we prayed together. But I also would bring the gospel to bear at different times through the week so that they remembered that only those who repent and believe in Christ really have a right to have access to God. And you know, when I was disciplining them, you know, I would remind them, sweetheart, this is why we all need the gospel, because we all have sinful hearts that rebel against the authorities God places in our lives, that rebel against God himself. And that's why Jesus came.

And so, my children hated my sermons, you know, at that moment, worse than they did the discipline. But that's so important, so important to use those opportunities to direct them back to the gospel. But in terms of their praying, yeah, I encourage that, or encourage them to cry out to God, their Creator. And then as time goes along, you're helping them understand that God is only obligated to hear the prayers of his children. Yeah, you're welcome.

Hi Tom, name is KIRK CHALLGREN. My question is, how do we respond to folks who say that God of the Old Testament seems different than the God of the New Testament? For example, God's desire to dispossess all the Israelites in Numbers 14, or His judgment of the man who touched the ark and died in 2 Samuel 6.

TOM PENNINGTON: Yeah, I think the way you help them understand it is that there is complete identity between the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament. Let's start with who permeates the Old Testament. The answer is the Second Person of the Trinity, the One who would become the Lord Jesus, the eternal Son of God. Because where does the Bible begin? In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Who was the instrument among the Trinity? All three members of the Trinity were involved. The Holy Spirit hovers over the water, the Father is involved in that. But in addition, John 1 says, apart from the Word, apart from the eternal Son of God, nothing was created that was created.

So, Jesus is in verse 1 of the Old Testament. The pre-incarnate Son of God is present in verse 1 of the Old Testament. And He is the One who shows up to shepherd God's people. I mean, in 1 Corinthians 10, what does Paul say? The rock that followed them was Jesus. I mean, He was the One leading the children of Israel through the wilderness. He's the Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament. That mysterious figure who is God was called the Angel of the Lord, the Messenger of God. He was the pillar of fire.

I did a series, I think it was three messages, on Christ in the Old Testament. That might be a great place to start, because I think helping people see that the Jesus who shows up in the New Testament is the eternal Son of God who permeates the Old Testament, who is involved in its history, its prophecy. He's there. He's at Sinai. He's in the burning bush. He is the One who permeates the Old Testament. So, we're not talking about different gods. 

Now, when you come to the New Testament, you know, when you take, for example, God's destruction of people groups, and deciding that it's time for them, you know, to use Israel like a scalpel to cut the cancer out of the Middle East where that had become. That is God's prerogative. 

And you read the New Testament, and He reserves that right and prerogative. It comes to its greatest demonstration at the end, right? Read the Book of Revelation. In the Great Tribulation, the Lord Jesus Himself, we're told it's the wrath of the Lamb. So, you know, the Bible ends with the destruction of the wicked, not one people group, but the entire wicked. So, we’re not talking about a different God. The God that we worship is always just and holy, and pours out His wrath on those who rebel against Him and who hate Him. And so, there's no change. But I think it starts—the best way to start is to get your mind around Christ in the Old Testament and to see that reality.

Now, the moral conundrum of why did God, you know, tell the children of Israel to annihilate entire people groups, including children? I mean, when you look at Genesis 15, you have the prophecy about Abraham's descendants going down into Egypt. And God says, why? Genesis 15 and verse 13, “God said to Abram, ‘Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, where they will be enslaved and oppressed for four hundred years.’” He's talking about Egypt. And He says, “I will judge the nation whom they will serve, and afterward they will come out with many possessions.” And then He says this, “Then in the fourth generation, they will return here, because the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet full.” In other words, God is just, and He does punish. But God allowed His people to be in slavery for four hundred years, or not in the entire four-hundred-year period, but for a large portion of that four hundred years, to be in slavery, giving, patiently giving time for the Amorites to repent.

So, God gave them time. He gave them a message. Some of them did repent when the children of Israel come to the land. Rahab would be a great example, but many of them didn't. And God then said, okay, then the iniquity of the Amorite is full. I want you to be My scalpel to cut them out of the land.

And when you look at what the sins were, you understand why. I mean, they were sacrificing children, and on and on it went. And so, God is the same God, Old and New Testament, and that's most evidenced by the fact that Jesus Himself permeates, that is, the eternal Son of God permeates the Old Testament. And so that's where I would say to start.

I'm BLAKE MCKELLAR. As Christians, are we supposed to approach the Jewish faith any differently than any other faith that denies Christ?

TOM PENNINGTON: Yeah, no, that's a great question. There is today a movement among those who profess to be evangelical Christians, a movement to essentially become Jews in our worship, to really re-embrace Judaism, even in the names we use, including the festivals and the feasts. There are several different movements that sort of encourage that.

And I would just say, let me just say to you, brothers and sisters, if you come across someone who's saying, you need to become more Jewish in your worship, the red flags ought to go up everywhere, because there are some of those movements that are legitimate, and we can celebrate  certain things with them. But there are others, and I've talked about some of those when I was going through 1 John 4, that are even heretical. So be very careful, they deny the deity of Christ, etc.

But, to your question, the answer is, you need to differentiate between the faith of the Scriptures and Judaism. You know, when you look at the Scriptures, clearly Jesus, when He assessed New Testament Judaism, the Judaism in the first century, He identified it as a false faith. He said, the Pharisees were making their proselytes twice the children of hell that they were, Matthew 23.

And so, it was a false faith. It was encouraging them to trust in their own righteousness. And Paul talks about that in Romans 10 as well, where he says, you know, there's this, Romans 9 and Romans 10, where there's this encouragement to put your confidence in your own works and your own obedience to the law. That's a false religion, okay? And that's true of modern Judaism. They're tied to the Old Testament Hebrew Scriptures, but it is not the faith of true believers.

That's why Paul says that, you know, I could wish myself a curse for my kinsmen according to the flesh, because they're not believers. And in fact, he says back in Romans chapter 2, not all who are Jewish are true Jews. There have to be, you have to differentiate.

There was a remnant even in the Old Testament, right? Only a remnant believed, who truly believed in the God of Israel, who abandoned hope in themselves. And Paul argues in Romans 4, that justification by faith alone is what Abraham believed, is what David believed. That's a true believer. That's true Judaism. But once you start turning Judaism into a works-based system, you have created a false religion.

That's why Jesus, you remember that dramatic scene at the end of the Passion Week, in which He is so angered by the abuse of first century Judaism, and how it's abusing people, particularly the widow, the widow who gives everything she has to live on. That's contrary to the heart of God. God tells us to support the widows, to make sure they have what they need to live on.

That's the heart of God. But the system robbed this woman of what she needed to live on. That's why He said just, in both cases where the widow's might story occurs, you look at the verses right before it, and Jesus says this system devours widow's houses. And Jesus was so angered by the system, a works-based righteousness, a system that took advantage of people, that He leaves the temple, and He says, as the disciples are admiring the temple, He says, listen, not one of these stones will be left on another. They're going to be destroyed. This is a worthless system.

So, you have to differentiate between true biblical Old Testament believers and Judaism, both in the first century and today. That's where some people get hung up in, you know, we need to champion the modern state of Israel. Well, listen, I believe, Romans 11, I believe that all Israel is going to be saved. I believe that the Jewish people have a special place in the heart of God. But that doesn't mean that everything that the modern state of Israel does is admirable, and we ought to champion. Because most of the nation of Israel are pagan atheists, and many of them are idolaters because they've substituted their own righteousness for faith in the God they claim to worship.

So, you just have to be careful to differentiate that, okay?

Hi, Tom. My name is DEON. 

TOM PENNINGTON: Hi, Deon. 

I just wanted to know, is there a biblical way to view emotions or affections? Because I think that one of my favorite books is Spiritual Depression by Martin Lloyd-Jones. And he goes into how believers deal with various trials, whether it be lack of faith or whether it be viewing past sin and the regrets over that. So how do we cultivate a biblical view of our emotions? And how do we keep ourselves from responding to situations in an unbiblical way as we're dealing with trials or various situations in life?

TOM PENNINGTON: Yeah, no, that's a great question, Deon. I think the big picture is that God gave us the gift of emotion. You know, we are not told to suppress emotion in the sense that we are told to respond to our emotions.

First of all, you have to understand what emotions are. Emotions are a physical response to either what is true or what we believe to be true. For example, if you're standing there and we're having a conversation, I had a plastic snake in my pocket. I wouldn't do this to you, by the way. But if I threw it down there in front of you and you believed that that plastic snake was real, what emotion would you respond with? Fear, right? Even though it's not real, your emotional, your response, emotions are a response, you respond to what you think is true with that emotion of fear. And so, emotions are in that sense a response. They should not govern, but rather they should respond to what we believe or know to be true.

So that's where we are not to live by our emotions. It's interesting, when you look at the New Testament, I challenge you to read it and think about how often feelings and people living by feelings is recorded in the New Testament. They're always unbelievers.

Believers are governed by what we know, by what we know to be true about God from His Word. And that governs our lives. So, think of it this way, emotions should never be the engine of your Christian life. The engine of your Christian life is what you know from the Scriptures. Your emotions are the caboose, they're to follow, they're to be drawn along. So, you don't try to drive a certain emotion, your emotion responds to what you know to be true.

So, if you want to rejoice, you can't just sort of work up joy. I'm just going to be joyful. No, that's artificial. You have to think about the truth. You have to think about, you know, I love what Jesus says, I think it's in Luke 10:20, where He—the disciples come back from their missions trip, and they're talking about all the stuff that Christ empowered them to do. And He says, okay, that's great, He says, but don't rejoice that the demons are subject to you. Rejoice that your names are written in heaven. 

Just think about that for a moment. Your name, Christian, is written in heaven. Now what's your response to that? What's your emotional response when you understand that truth? It fills you                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               with joy if you believe that, if that's you. And so, our emotions respond to that. And so, I think that's a very simple answer to a complex issue.

But I think you need to let your mind drive your emotions and not your emotions drive your life. And so, think about the truth to correct emotions. Emotions will eventually follow as you speak the truth to yourself.

In some cases, because we're two-part beings, emotions can be somewhat physically caused. They can be, you know, I know, I'm a pretty stable person, but at one point somebody recommended that I take melatonin for sleep. And I took melatonin and I'm like moping around all day every day. It's like, what's wrong with me? I've never been like this in my life. So sometimes there can be physical components that shape and direct our emotions, you know, things we're going through physically.

So, it's more complicated. But I'm just saying, don't let your emotions be the engine. Let them follow what you know to be true about God. And when you have emotions, let them drive you to respond appropriately to God. 

What does James say? He says, you know, is anyone among you joyful? Let him sing songs, you know, let your emotions drive you back to God. You see that in the Psalms, right? When the psalmist is struggling, what is he doing? He's pouring out his heart before God. When he's struggling emotionally, and you see that laid out in the Psalms. And when he's filled with joy, what's he doing? He's expressing that in praise. So those would be the main things I would say. 

But understand the big picture. And that is that for the Christian, our minds, comprehending and understanding God's truth, is what is to drive everything. And sometimes our emotions follow that. Other times, it may take a while, or there may be a physical component, but don't live in your emotions. You know, it doesn't matter what you feel. Your feelings could be wrong, like the snake illustration. You may be feeling fear when you don't need to feel fear.

So, it's back to what I've always said, and that is, preach the truth to yourself. Just don't listen to yourself, talk to yourself. That's Lloyd-Jones, right? And I love that book, too. But don't listen to yourself, talk to yourself, preach the truth to yourself. And that's how your mind changes, and often, not always, because there are other factors, but often, your emotions will follow as you do that.

But regardless, you still believe the truth, regardless of what your emotions are telling you. In fact, there are times, and I've shared this with you, there are times when you just have to say to your emotions, shut up, you know, it doesn't matter, I'm going to do what's right. And I think it was Elizabeth Elliott who said, you know, some disposition, some emotions don't go by praying, they go by kicking, you know. And sometimes that's exactly what's required. But let them regardless drive you back to God. Yep, all right, great.

Well, thank you for your questions. I hope some of that would be helpful and beneficial to you. Again, there's a lot more to be said about all those things, but hopefully at least some of that will be encouraging. Let's pray together, and we will finish our evening. Let's pray. 

Our Father, we are so grateful that You have not left us as orphans in the world, but You have given us Your Word and you've given us Your Spirit. Lord, I pray that You would help us always to come back to in every discussion, in every consideration, may our question be, what does the Bible say? Father, may you drive us back always there. Thank You for the gift You've given us.

Thank you for this time together. I pray that You would use it for good. Lord, if there's something I've said that's not helpful, I pray You would help Your people to forget it soon. If there's something that's helpful and encouraging, use it for their good. And Lord, use Your Word in all of our lives. Bless our time of fellowship together now as we leave this place. Give us a good week, Lord. Help us to live in a way that honors Your Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, in whose name we pray. Amen.