Q & A

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Well, it's time tonight for our question-and-answer time and let me tell you how this works. Now, there are three mics in the aisles. You can go and stand there. In fact, you can even form a line, two or three deep, because if you don't, if there's just one person standing there, then I can answer one question for like an hour and a half. Alright? I can do that, but I know that's not really what you want. So, make sure that I - that you give me some visual that there are other people with questions or... So, if you have a question, feel free to sort of stand and form a little line and I'll get to each question quickly that way, and answer it and keep moving so we get as many questions answered as possible tonight.

Now, there were a couple of timid people who didn't want to get up and ask their question. So, let me just touch on a couple of things and then you can start - you can get up and start asking your questions.

There were a couple of questions about worship and what's appropriate and not appropriate in worship. And those are good questions. But I'm going to be covering, in our study of the church, worship in just a short time. So, I'm going to kind of not steal my thunder and save that. So, those of you who asked those questions, I'm not ignoring you, just give us a couple of weeks here and we'll be getting to worship, and all that's involved in worship.

But there were several questions about the judgment seat of Christ. And I want to just briefly, before the rest of you get up to ask your questions, I want to take you to a couple of passages because this is a question that frankly, as a young person and as a new Christian, I was mistaught.

I don't know how many of you have ever heard of "Chick Tracts" - the little picture books. Those are worthless. They're terrible theology and they skew your thinking about what the Bible actually teaches. And one of them portrays believers standing before the judgment seat of Christ and having all of their sins thrown up on this great giant screen, and watching their sinful life unfold before the eyes of all humanity.

Is that what the Bible teaches? The answer is, "Absolutely not!" My sin and your sin, if you're in Christ, was fully and finally judged in the person of Jesus Christ on the cross at Calvary. Paul couldn't make it any clearer. Romans 5, he says, "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God..." He goes on to say, "...we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him." And then you come to that crowning passage in Romans 8:1: "Therefore there is [what?] now no condemnation [no guilty verdict, no judgement against you] for those who are in Christ Jesus." My sin - oh, the bliss of this glorious thought - / My sin, not in part, but the whole, / Is nailed to the Cross, and I bear it no more; / Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul! That's the teaching of Scripture.

So, what exactly is the judgment seat of Christ? There are two passages. Well, there are a couple actually, three maybe, that I'll take you to, real briefly. Turn to 1 Corinthians 3. We get our first glimpse.

Now, this passage is primarily directed to church leaders. Nevertheless, as church leaders we'll stand and give an account before the Lord, so will each of us, because each of us has a responsibility. Every Christian has a responsibility in service before the Lord. So, Paul reminds them that the divisions they're going through are sinful because we're just servants. He says in verse 5: "What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything [we don't matter], but God who causes the growth."

Now, as he comes down through that concept, verse 10, he says, "According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it." So, now, he changes images from someone who is in the agricultural area to a building image. And he says, "...I laid a foundation, and another [somebody else] is building on it. But each man must be [everybody has to be] careful how he builds on it [and, ultimately, Christ Himself is the foundation]."

"Now if any man [and here, again, the primary reference is to those in church leadership, but the application is to every Christian. He says, if any man] builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day [that is, the day of judgement, when we appear before Christ] will show it because it is to be revealed with fire..." That's the fire, if you will, of God's piercing eye. You know, in Revelation 1, Jesus is presented as having eyes which are flaming fire. It speaks of His ability to discern, to cut through all of the extras and see what's really there. That's what we're talking about here. "...and the fire itself [the discerning power of God] will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." That simply means that there's no reward for him. There's nothing to show for his life of service, but his salvation is untouched by that reality.

In chapter 4 you see, in verse 5, the same concept. Paul says, "Listen, don't judge me. I don't even judge myself. He says, "I don't know of anything against me, but that doesn't mean I'm acquitted." Verse 5: "Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time [that is, the time of judgement], but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God." Again, the emphasis here is on the testing of our works, the testing of our works. In this case, our works can't truly be tested by simply the actions themselves but have to be tested with the motives. Why did we do what we did? Not merely, what did we do. And here it says God will do whatever He has to, to bring to light those issues that enable Him to discern where reward can be received: "...and then each man's praise will come to him from God." This obviously lets us know that we're talking about a positive outcome of this judgment. There are rewards for those whose work stands the test of God's discerning eye.

Now, turn over to 2 Corinthians 5. And by the way, I'm just touching on this. We're going to study, when we get to eschatology in a few, well, weeks I think, at least by the first of the year, we'll look in more detail at this. But I just want to give you a brief glimpse. 2 Corinthians 5:9. Paul has just been talking about the fact that he's stuck here in this decaying body. He'd rather be in heaven with Christ but that's God's choice. So, he says in verse 9, "Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ [the Bema Seat of Christ. The Corinthians would've understood this image. It was part of their culture. Even where the Olympic athletes and their competition was judged, whether they competed according to the rules. And if they were judged to have competed according to the rules, they received reward. They received their wreath, their winner's wreath. And so, here he says, we must appear before the Bema Seat of Christ], so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done..." And, here, Paul uses these last two words "good or bad" - is not talking so much about morally good or morally bad, but rather useful and valuable or useless and worthless. And so, again, the emphasis is on the evaluation of our service, of our work. Somehow, our motives and our words will figure into this. You remember, we looked some time ago at Matthew's gospel, where Jesus says that we will give an account for every idle or worthless word. So, it's not going to be a fun celebrating time entirely. There will be difficulty at the judgment seat of Christ, but our sins will not come into play at the judgment seat of Christ. They've been completely judged on the cross, in the person of our Lord Jesus.

Alright, well, that's one of the questions. Now, let me give you a chance. So, go ahead if you have questions and come on up. Don't be bashful or shy. Like I said, I can answer this question for another hour. So, you don't want me to do that. What do you have? What's on your heart tonight? Yes, George.

Jory: Is supralapsarianism Calvinistic or hyper Calvinistic?

Pastor Tom: Is that a real question?

Jory: Yeah.

Pastor Tom: Alright. Well, there's a lot of background to what Jory just asked and I'm not sure I want to flesh all of that out for you. Let me give you the real short version, alright? And we can talk about this afterwards. But, basically, basically there is a debate among... We talked about, you remember, the debate between Calvinism and Arminianism when we did our study of salvation. There is a debate on in what order, in eternity past, you remember, we talked about the divine decree, the eternal decree. God decided in eternity past everything that would ever happen. Well, there's a debate about in what order did God make the decisions relating to the fall and the salvation of man. And so, the debate goes, if God decreed first that man would fall and then that man would be saved, those whom He would save, that creates fewer problems than the position that says that God decreed to save some, and then He decreed the fall. In the end, this is a debate that I think is not necessarily productive, because I don't think we can answer what order the divine decrees were in. I've read a lot of things that have been written about this, but I don't think that it's a useful debate in the end. I think to answer your question though, specifically, you asked about... I'm trying to remember what you said. You asked was Calvinistic. Which?

Jory: Supra.

Pastor Tom: Supra. Personally, I would say that that borders, depending on the rest of the views the person holds, I think it borders on hyper Calvinism. I think normally those who hold that view also hold other views that would, for them, make them hyper Calvinistic. Now, if you don't understand all of that, don't worry about it. The bottom line is there are people who embrace the sovereignty of God to, what I believe, is an unbiblical extent, to the extent that it paralyzes their evangelism. It has them believing that God hates the non-elect and does not love them and other issues that, as we look through Scripture together, we saw is not true. I do believe, as you saw, we went through that together, God is sovereign in salvation. There's no question about that. God makes decisions in eternity past - whom He will save. But that doesn't change God's universal love for all mankind. It doesn't change the absolute demands on every one of us to evangelize constantly with the gospel of Jesus Christ. And so, I think any position that causes people to cross the line in those clear-cut commands, is an unbiblical position.

Okay. Yes.

Rich: As you know, we're studying 1 Peter in the Home Fellowship groups. And since, eventually, I'm going to come to this passage and have to teach it, I thought now might be a good time for me to be enlightened on it from you. This is in 1 Peter 3, and I'll just read verses 18 through 20. And my question is just, what is he talking about here?

Pastor Tom: Yeah.

Rich: So, it says, "For Christ also died [suffered] for sins once for all, the just [righteous] for the unjust [unrighteous], so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."

Pastor Tom: Good question! This is a difficult passage that a lot of different interpretations are given of. I think there is a great defense of the position, I'm going to present to you, in Wayne Grudem's little commentary on Peter and his epistles. I think he has a little excursus on it in the commentary, if I remember correctly. But the bottom line is this. The debate is, did Jesus go, during that time after His death and before He was resurrected, did He go in the spirit into hell itself and preach in some way to those people that were there in Noah's time, did not believe, died, and went to hell? Did Jesus go to hell during the time between His death and resurrection?

I think the answer to that is, "No." Let me tell you what I think is going on here. Look at the verse again carefully. In - verse 19 is the key verse. "...[in the spirit] in which also He went [Jesus also went] and made proclamation to the spirits..." Notice the translators (the New American Standard) insert the word "now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah..." What I think this passage is saying is that Jesus Christ, either in a pre-incarnate appearance, Himself, or in and through Noah, proclaimed the truth of the gospel to those people in Noah's time. In other words, for 120 years Noah preached the gospel to those people as the ark was built. I think what Peter is saying is either that Jesus Himself, at some point, in one of those pre-incarnate appearances that we read so often of in the Old Testament, or in spirit through Noah, proclaimed the gospel to those people in the days of Noah, at the time of Noah. And those spirits of those men are now in prison because they did not respond to the truth of the gospel. Does that make sense, Rich? Basically, what you have then is that when did he preach? Did he preach to them after they went to hell, or did He preach to them while they were still alive and they're now in hell? And I think, personally I believe, that He went and preached to them while they were still alive, here on the earth, during the days of Noah, and their spirits are now in prison, in hell.

Okay? Good question. What else? Yes.

Questioner: Just to piggyback off of that. Where did, and can you give reference to, where Jesus went whenever He was dead.

Pastor Tom: Well, I think, you know, it's back to somebody who told me they were going to ask me about the hypostatic union tonight. And that's fine. But that's really what we're talking about here. When you ask, "Where did Jesus go?", you're really asking two different questions because Jesus had two natures which could neither be confused, that is, they're never mixed, nor can they ever be separated. Nevertheless, there is and was a part of Jesus' being that is God and, as God, fills the universe. In other words, we could say that, in a sense, Jesus was always filling the universe as God. There was never a time when Jesus was only confined to that human body and to one geographical location in the land of Israel. Couldn't be confined there. He's not able to be because God, by definition, fills all of space and time and into Infinity. And so, there's no way that He could be contained in a body, or in a place, or in a land, or in a grave. Can't be. Okay? So, in that sense, Jesus Christ, as God, from eternity past to eternity future, always, without any deviation, has filled all of space. He is immense in His person, as God is.

But Jesus was also human. He took on full humanity. He became everything that we are, as you often hear me say, "everything that we are except for sin". He's just like, and He is, just like you, except for sin, except He has a glorified body and you don't. Other than that, He is in every way just like you, except for sin. Jesus' humanity was confined, I believe, in the grave. His body was there. Where was the human spirit of Jesus, the soul, if you will, of Jesus? I can't fully answer that question.

You know, there's a debate about what Jesus meant when he told Mary, after the resurrection, "Stop clinging to Me [stop touching Me], for I have not yet ascended to the Father..." There's a debate about what that means. I don't think Jesus was saying, "I still haven't seen God after My resurrection", personally. I think He was saying, "My full and complete work here and ultimately My ascension hasn't happened. So, keep... So, stop grabbing onto Me. Stop seizing Me and holding on to Me." So, you know, to answer your question, where was He? As God, He filled the universe as He always had. As man, His body was confined to that grave on the side of Golgotha's Hill. And His human spirit? I can't fully answer that question. I had no reason to believe but what - it was in the presence of God.

Alright. What else? Yes, Sir.

Questioner: Before the fall, do you think animals could talk? Because when Eve was approached by the serpent, when it talked, well, when it talked to her, wouldn't she have been frightened or... Because it seemed like she wasn't. It wasn't something that happened for the first time or something like that.

Pastor Tom: Right, sure. No, that's a good question because it is strange that she doesn't seem surprised by it. I think there are a couple of possibilities. I mean, we don't know all of how God created the original creation before fall, before the fall. Is it possible? I mean, animals do communicate with each other. Was it possible for them to communicate with unfallen man, when they were in an unfallen state? I don't think so, but I don't know. I can't say that - absolutely not. But you have to remember that Eve is newly created at this point. In fact, most believe that we're within days of her creation when this event occurs. There's a whole world of things that she hasn't seen. And so, she really has no - when the serpent comes, she has no way to know, as we do today, that serpents don't talk. And so, for her, she's simply encountering another marvelous creation of her great God. And so, I think that's a possibility as well, that it was just a matter of she's still getting to know the world that God had created and all the amazing creatures that He'd made. And so, it may just be as simple as that. She had never encountered a serpent and had therefore no surprise when it started talking to her, assuming that's how God had created it. Okay? We can't say for absolutely sure, but I think it's one of those.

Questioner: Alright, thank you.

Pastor Tom: Good question. Yes, Sir.

Questioner: Ezekiel 33:13, it says…

Pastor: Wait a minute, let me get there. Ezekiel. What was it?

Questioner: 33:13.

Pastor Tom: Okay.

Questioner: It says, "When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered..." How does that fit together with "There is none righteous, not even one"?

Pastor Tom: This is one of a number of passages that talk about people as righteous. It doesn't mean righteous. I mean, David will often in the Psalms, as you read the Psalms, he'll often describe himself as righteous. But on the other hand, David understood that "If You, Lord, should mark iniquities, O Lord, who could stand?" He also was the one who recounted the fact that from the beginning, when he was conceived, he was a sinner. Sin was part of his nature. And so, I think what you have to read is, you have to read this related to the work of God in the heart of a person. If you ask me, "Am I righteous?" My answer to you would be, "Yes and no." "No", if you mean do I have anything in me that gives me or that makes me deserving of the grace and goodness of God to me? The answer is, "Absolutely not!" As Isaiah says, "And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment [rags]..." In other words, the very best that we can accomplish, if you think for a moment about the very best thing, you think you've ever done in your life, the most wholesome, the most spiritual, the most beneficial thing for the kingdom, if you think for a moment about that, Isaiah says, "That is as filthy rags before God." So, if you ask me, "Am I righteous before God?" in the sense that anything in me can please God, the answer is, "No!" Paul says, "In my flesh [what?] there dwells no good thing."

However, I can say I'm righteous in two senses. First of all, I can say I'm righteous because I've been declared righteous with the righteousness of another, in the beauty of justification. Paul says, "He declares us to be righteous." So, in that sense, I'm righteous. I have a standing of righteous before God even though I'm not inherently righteous. Secondly, I can say I'm righteous in the sense that, by God's grace, He is changing me to be a person with a decreasing pattern of sin and an increasing pattern of righteousness. I'm not what I want to be but, by God's grace, I'm not what I used to be. And so, I can say I'm righteous in a comparative sense. And I think that's what - when you see the writers of Scripture talking about their being righteous - Job, for example, mentions his righteousness, David does, as they're complaining to God about the attacks on them, they talk about the fact they're righteous. They're not claiming that they deserve something from God. They're simply saying, comparatively, they are righteous in the sense that they love God, they have been changed by God's grace, and they have a righteousness from Him as a gift. I think in those senses they're saying that.

Yes, Renee.

Renee: In reference to science fiction and fantasy literature and entertainment i.e., Star Wars and Lord of the Rings and Narnia type of thing, what is the biblical take on things like that in reference to entertaining believers?

Pastor Tom: Well, I think, first of all, you have to ask, is there anything in it that is contrary to Scripture? Is it teaching - or not anything. Obviously, there's nothing in the world that isn't contrary to Scripture except for Scripture itself. But what I mean is, is it inherently contradictory to the truth that we embrace? We're told that we're not to allow ourselves to think on, to concentrate on, those things that are contrary to the revealed Word of God. And so, I mean, there's a - that's where you start. But once you answer, "Well, maybe. I don't know." And that's where we usually land, isn't it? I mean, usually it's not quite as clear cut. If it's clear cut, we're not asking that question. We know it's wrong. We shouldn't be watching it. We shouldn't be - if it's glorifying or contains those things that we're told not to allow our minds to concentrate on, if you go to a movie and in that movie, there are illicit scenes that you shouldn't be allowing your mind to embrace, that's sin against God. There's no question about that.

But what about things like science fiction where there's fantasy, there's these other worlds, etc.? I think this falls, as I was talking several weeks ago on, under the issue of issues of conscience. That is, when Scripture... And this is... If you don't get anything else I say tonight, listen to this because this is so important to us as believers. God has told us everything, clear cut, He wants us to know here in the Word of God. God doesn't mumble when He speaks. And so, whatever He wants us to know for sure, whatever is truly important to Him, is revealed in the Word of God. You ought to be able to go there and find chapter and verse where it says, "Thou shalt" or "Thou shalt not". But there are a lot of things in our world and in our lives that the Scripture does not directly address. Science fiction would be one of those if, again, if it's not running clearly contrary to the teaching of Scripture.

So, where do we go to make those decisions? Well, let me tell you what you don't do. You don't go to some passage, abuse a passage taken out of its context and say, "It's wrong for me and it's wrong for you to do that." You don't make God say something God hasn't said.

So, what do you do? Well, there are two passages in Scripture that deal with, what I would call, issues of conscience or doubtful things. If it's not clearly commanded or forbidden in the Word of God... Listen carefully. You have this category over here of things that are clearly commanded or forbidden by the Word of God and nine out of ten Christians looking at those passages would say, "Yes, that's clearly commanded. That's clearly forbidden." Then over here you have this category of things that are not addressed clearly in Scripture. This is an area called issues of conscience. Now, your responsibility is to go to those two passages in Scripture that deal with issues of conscience and tell us how to make those decisions and to evaluate that thing based on those two passages.

Look at Romans 14, for example. In Romans 14, Paul is using the illustration... By the way, the other passage is 1 Corinthians 8-10. So, you can kind of make note of those. Read them. Go through them carefully. In both of these passages, Paul is using a contemporary first century example. But the application of it transcends that example. He's not just talking about meat sacrificed idols. He's talking about anything and how to deal with anything that falls in this category over here of things not clearly forbidden or clearly commanded by the Word of God. How do you deal with that? How do you make those decisions? Well, if you walk through Romans 14 and you take the principles that Paul lays down for how to respond, then you can make a spiritual decision.

Now, I'm not going to take time to go through this whole chapter but let me just show you where you have to start. Look at verse 1, Romans 14: "Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand." Then he goes another illustration. One person [somebody] regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.

What basic point is Paul making here in these first few verses? He's saying that on these issues of doubtful things, there are going to be brothers and sisters in Christ who are weaker, who feel that they can't do things that the Scripture forbids. If you're not in that category, don't look down on them. Don't pass judgment on them. Don't always be sort of treating them as second-class citizens. And if you're in the category of a person who has a weaker conscience, who feels uncomfortable and feels guilty when you do things that are in the areas of issues of conscience, then don't judge other people by what you decide in these areas. Don't say, "Well, you know, so and so, they read Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. They're not spiritual." If you make that decision, that's your decision. And that's what Paul is saying. Make that decision before the Lord as what you believe would honor Him. But then let each servant give answer to the Lord for the decisions they make. That's true of every issue of conscience. And this is the greatest temptation.

I can tell you, in working with my own heart as well as with others through the years, here's what happens. Those are the two temptations, the person who has a very weak conscience, who feels guilty about wearing pink shirts on Friday, they look askance at the person who wears pink shirts - "What an unspiritual person! If they were really a spiritual person, they would know this is not right for a Christian to do!" That's what Paul is saying. Don't do that. On the other hand, the person who doesn't have a weak conscience is very tempted to look down on the person with a weak conscience and go, "Oh brother! Why don't they just grow up?" That's not the right perspective either. That's what Paul is saying. Understand that you have, before the Lord, the responsibility to make the decision and the issues of conscience for you and your family. And everyone else has the same responsibility. And we all will give an account to our Lord. It's not for you to make those decisions. Okay?

So, I'm giving a broad answer because I think the answer needs to be broad because there's no one specific answer. The point is, does it violate the Scripture clearly? Is it forbidden? Then, that's clear. You shouldn't be taking it into your mind. You shouldn't be using as entertainment. But if it's not clearly forbidden, if the things in it aren't clearly forbidden, then it becomes an issue of conscience, and you have to evaluate it.

There are a number of other principles here, by the way. I just touched on it. At some point we're going to go through this chapter in detail, but I would encourage you to read it carefully. But this is how you make those decisions. But you make them between you and your family and the Lord, and you let everyone else make those same decisions for themselves before the Lord.

Yes.

Questioner: I have two young boys that are fascinated with dinosaurs that have really pushed me to question what do I believe and really actually have to do research. It seems evolution is really pushed its way even into Christian society that we forget that God made the animals, that He made man, that we actually coexisted. I've read some books by Ken Ham. Are you familiar with him?

Pastor Tom: Yes.

Questioner: I was going to ask you, are those really good books to follow up with? Are there some others out there? Because I want to be able to give my kids the biblical and say, "Yeah, that's what the world says but that's not right. This is what Christ says about this. This is how God made it."

Pastor Tom: There are some great resources available. I think Ken Ham stuff is very good and when I was out at Grace, we had him there, he spoke, and I have his messages from the time he was there. Material was very good. Also, there's an institution called the Creation Research Institute in which they have many, many materials. You can find them online. A lot of great stuff, both for kids as well as adults and... The bottom line is we can't allow a system of philosophy that stands opposed to God to rob God of His glory. And when you take those majestic creatures, that even in Job are described in such vivid detail, that God made, and you suddenly make them sort of oozing out of the slime and becoming what they were separate from God, you have stolen God's glory. And, honestly, on that front alone, if I were God, I'm afraid I would have already hurled judgment on my world. But God is gracious and patient, and you can be thankful I'm not Him.

Questioner: Thank you.

Pastor Tom: What else? Any other questions? Yes, Tony. Just another question. I think we're going to have to stop.

Tony: I think I know the answer to this question, but I want to know how you would respond to a Catholic, especially asking the question about this passage. It's John 6:52 through...

Pastor Tom: I'm sorry, what verse was that?

Questioner: I'll start out at 47 and read...

Pastor Tom: John 6:47?

Questioner: 6:47

Pastor Tom: Okay.

Questioner: "'Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.' Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, 'How can this man give us His flesh to eat?' So Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.'"

And the question being: I think I understand the metaphorical part of that passage, but how would you respond to a Catholic who says, "This is, you know, He couldn't say it much plainer to say that there is actually transubstantiation occurring in communion."

Pastor Tom: Right. The true body and blood of Christ are part of the mass. They're part of those elements that you eat.

Questioner: Right, that's the question.

Pastor Tom: Yeah, very, very direct answer. And Jesus Himself gives it in this passage because, if you'll notice, it really confused many. Verse 60: "Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, 'This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?' But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, 'Does this cause you to stumble? What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?' [Now, watch verse 63]. It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; [Now, watch the end of the verse. This is the answer, I think, Jesus gives to Catholicism.] the words that I have spoken to you [you were troubled about all this. You're worried about what does this mean, "eating My flesh and drinking My blood". The words which I have spoken to you] are spirit [that is, they are spiritual words] and are life." He says, "I'm not talking to you about eating My body and My blood physically. I'm talking about partaking of Me in a spiritual sense." So even then there were those, like the Catholics, who misunderstood what Jesus was saying and He corrected them on the spot. That would be my answer to a Catholic.

Alright. Well, it's been a wonderful time together. There were one or two questions that I didn't get to that people handed me. If I didn't get your question, please come up and ask me and I'll answer it. I have - I even jotted down a couple of answers so I don't want to let anyone not get an answer to their question tonight. But I think we better end there and thank you for asking questions. See, I didn't have to answer one question for an entire hour. And I appreciate - you know, everybody's grateful for that. So, thank you for asking. I hope some of that was helpful. You know, normally when there's a question asked, there's a curiosity about that by others and, in some cases, a compelling interest in that issue by others. I hope many of you had questions answered tonight.

If I could end our session together in a way that I think would be appropriate, I would say this. The bottom line is the rule of what we believe and of what we do, how we live, is always and only the Scripture. Let me take you, in closing, to my favorite passage, 1 Corinthians 4. 1 Corinthians 4. We were there earlier when we looked at the judgment. Paul says (the first part of that chapter), he says, "Look. You know, I'm a steward and I don't care if you examine me." "I do not even examine myself", he says at the end of verse 3. "For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted [not guilty]; but the one who examines me is the Lord." "And He's going to come", he says in verse 5, as we read earlier. But watch verse 6: "Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn..." And, here, I actually think some of the other translations get this clearer. There's an unusual use of the Greek article, the definite article, to introduce a familiar saying. Paul, here, quotes a saying that was very familiar in the early church and that I think ought to be the banner of our church and it's certainly - I attempt for it to be of my ministry. He says, "...so that in us you may learn ["the meaning of this saying" would be a good translation] not to exceed [beyond] what is written." Not beyond what has been written (Mē hyper ha gegraptai). He's saying, "This is what you should live by: what does the Scripture say? Not beyond what has been written."

May God help all of us to live by His holy Word.

Let's pray together.

Father, thank You for this time together. I pray that You would use Your Word in all of our hearts. Challenge us with the fact that we will appear before our Lord and give an account for our service. Lord, thank You that we will never face judgment for our sins because they were completely and finally and ultimately judged on Christ on the cross, and that we stand before You, in terms of sin, faultless, not because we are inherently, but because we wear the righteousness of Jesus Christ Your Son. Lord, we thank You and praise You. Thank You for Your Word. Lord, help us to order our lives by it. Help us to always ask, "What does the Bible say?" And, Father, help us to let it alone be the sole rule for what we believe and what we do. We pray it in Jesus' name and for His glory, Amen!