Q & A

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Here’s how it works tonight. Basically, there’re three mics in each of the aisles and what I want you to do is, if you have a question, go ahead - in fact, go ahead now if you have a question, you’ve already considered and thought about, go ahead and stand up and come up to the mic. And you can form a little line behind each. Here’s the reason for that. If there’s only one person standing up, I can answer one question the whole time we have tonight. But if I see there’re other questions and I know that there’re other people who want to ask them, I could also keep them a lot shorter so that we get through all the folks who have some question they want to ask.

So, we can do it one of two ways. You know, I can open up my Bible and preach or you can - you know, somebody can ask one question and I can answer it the whole time that we have together, or we can have a number of questions - whatever is on your heart and mind.

So, let’s go ahead - go ahead and those of you who have questions and come on up. Don’t be bashful and shy. It’s alright. And we’ll get started on that. And then others of you can just keep coming to each of the mics and you can sort of form a little line in each place if there’re several people, that way I’ll know that there’re others who have questions.

Alright, we’ll start with you and see where we go from there. Yes, Sir. Now, here’s how it works too. You have to give your name, so everybody knows your first name at least - everybody knows who you are and then shoot the question.

Michael Strayhorn: I’m Mike Strayhorn. In Romans 6:9 there’s the phrase, “death no longer is master [has mastery] over Him” in reference to Christ. Could you expound on that just a little bit? I’m curious how Christ, as Master of all, could for a period of time be subject to mastery by anything else.

Pastor Tom: Yeah, that’s a good question, Michael. I think Paul deals with that really in the next verse. If you look at Romans 6, you see that verse 8... You have to get kind of in the flow of what he’s doing here.

Remember that Romans is basically setting forth the reality of justification by faith alone. In chapter 1:16-17, he gives the theme of what the book is going to be - I’m going to give you the gospel of God. And then he begins to give the bad news - why we need the gospel - starting in verse 18, “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness...” And he lays out his conviction, his indictment of both Gentiles and Jews. And he makes all men guilty before God. And he comes to that conclusion in chapter 3:19-20 where he says, “...so that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God...” There’s nothing anybody can say when they stand before God to justify themselves. We are all guilty sinners.

Then he gets to the good news, the good news of the gospel he promised back in chapter 1:16-17. He comes there in chapter 3:21. In fact, keep your finger there and go back to chapter 3:21. Right after verses 19 and 20 where he convicts everybody - everybody is guilty - he comes to the good news. Verse 21 of chapter 3, “But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, [this isn’t a new idea] even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus...”

So, he turns to the good news of justification and lays out what it is that Christ has done for us, is He has... And justification, by the way, as you know is in fact that wonderful declaration that God makes where He declares unrighteous, ungodly sinners to be righteous with the righteousness of Jesus Christ. It involves double imputation - the crediting or imputation of our sins to Christ and the crediting or imputation of His righteousness to us. And then God, on behalf of that or because of that, then declares the sinner forgiven and righteous before Him.

The way I’ve illustrated that truth of justification (I can never get far away from it, so I’m thrilled to have an opportunity to remind you of it tonight) is it’s like this. It’s like Christ gets all of your bills and you get all of His deposits. And God treats you that way so that on the cross God treated Jesus as if He’d lived your sinful life so that forever He could treat you as if you had lived Jesus’ righteous life. That’s the good news. That’s the gospel. That’s justification.

So, Paul then begins to expound that and the implications of that. So, once he explains justification, he talks about the benefits of justification in Romans 5. He goes through and says, verse 1, “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ...” And he lists off benefits to that wonderful reality of justification that we have enjoyed down through verse 11. He deals with the contrast and similarities between Adam and Christ in the rest of chapter 5.

Then, in chapter 6, he gets to this issue of, “Okay, we’re declared righteous before God, but we’re still not fully righteous. What about indwelling sin that continues to be a part of our lives. And he wants us to know that, in fact, we have been freed in Christ from the dominion of sin. We are now dead to sin, not in the sense that we never sin, but in the sense that we are dead to its dominion, its controlling power. There was a time when we had no choice but to constantly sin. Now, we have the power to obey God, not perfectly - we still also sin - but we the power to obey God. So, that’s what he’s developing here.

And in the middle of this, then, he’s talking about, in verse 8, that the reason we’re dead to sin, the theological underpinnings of the fact that we’re dead to sin, is that in the mind of God, we died with Jesus. And when we came to faith in Christ, that moment you came to faith in Christ, it’s as if in the mind of God, when Jesus died on the cross, the person that you used to be (your “old man” as he describes him), the person you used to be died with Jesus. And when Jesus was raised to new life, you were raised to new life with Him. So, you benefit, as it were, from His death and resurrection in that way. Who you used to be died and you’ve been raised to new life with Christ.

Now, in the middle of that, verse 8, “Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ [and he makes this theological aside about Christ here], having been raised from the dead, is never to die again [only one time did Jesus die and He did it voluntarily, remember, it wasn’t taken from Him. He laid down His life. And then he says]; death no longer is master over Him.” What does that mean? In what sense was death a master over Jesus? Well, look at the next expression: “For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.” In other words, here’s what Paul is saying, Michael: Jesus died. He gave up His life. Death was not master over Him in the sense that death took Him when death wanted. The New Testament is very clear. Jesus says, “No man takes My life from Me. I lay it down on My own.” And even at the moment of His death, what did He say? He chose the timing of it. That’s the miracle of that last saying on the cross. “Father, into Your hands I commit my spirit.” “And He yielded up His spirit”, the text says. He, as an act of His will, chose the moment of His death. So, death was not master over Him in the sense that it sort of controlled and dominated Him. But, at the same time, He willingly, voluntarily submitted Himself to it. He became a servant to it in much the same sense as Philippians 2 when He became a servant by becoming a human being. And even Philippians 2 says, “He subjected Himself to death.” So, He willingly, by an act of His will, submitted Himself to death. In that sense, death was the master over Him, but He is the One who controls death.

I love the fact that you get to 1 Corinthians 15, and it says, you know, He is the One who now controls death, and it will someday be destroyed by Him. It is the last enemy, 1 Corinthians 15 says, to be destroyed. And then you come to Revelation 1. You see the glorified Christ and how does it describe Him? He has the keys of death and hell. So, He was under it in the sense that He willingly, voluntarily submitted Himself to death but it wasn’t that He was somehow mastered of it outside of His own will.

Does that make sense? Okay. Long answer to a short question but I hope that helps.

Yes, Sir.

C.J. Blankenship: Hello, I’m C.J. Blankenship and I guess I have two questions. First of all, in the second heaven and earth, I don’t know if it ever even says stuff in the Bible about this, but what happens to the angels?

Pastor Tom: Well, it does actually. Now, you have two groups of angels and obviously two different things happen with those angels. There were at one time only holy angels and Revelation makes it clear that there was a rebellion in heaven, that Satan led that rebellion. I think the description of what happened with Satan is in the book of Ezekiel. I’m not sure I would agree with the Isaiah passage being strictly a description of Satan. But you have in Ezekiel this description of Satan as the covering cherub, created as one of the great creatures of God - really, I think you could say the Prime Minister of heaven. And he rebelled against God, his heart was lifted up within him. And when he saw his own beauty, when he saw his own potential, he rebelled against God. So, sin really began within the heart of Satan and the pride the lifted him up. And he led a rebellion, Revelation says, and a third of the angels left with Satan. There was war in heaven and God cast Satan and these angels out. So, now you have two...

And when did that happen, by the way? There’s a lot of debate about that but I think you have, before creation, around the time of creation, you have to have the creation of the angels personally. I don’t think it goes back into eternity past. I think you have only God in eternity past. So, at some point before or around the time of the creation of man, you have the creation of angels. They’re called even ministering spirits, sent forth to minister to the saints.

So, anyway, I think then you have these two groups of angels. At some point, shortly before the fall of man, because there you have Satan already fallen in Genesis 3. And I personally it happened after God said, everything He created was very good. So, sometime between that statement and Genesis 3, you have this rebellion in heaven. And you have the fall of Satan and these angels.

So, now, starting at least in Genesis 3, you have two groups of angels. You have those angels that are called consistently the holy angels. And then you have those that are called the demons, okay? Or they’re also sometimes called angels but with some title or some description that differentiates them from the holy angels. Okay?

Now, when you talk about the two groups, there’s nothing to indicate that the holy angels ever go away. Their presence around God - when you turn to the book of Revelation, you trace through the book of Revelation, starting in Revelation 4, you remember, there... In fact, turn to Revelation 4, we’re invited into heaven to see what’s going on in heaven there. And when we look into heaven in Revelation 4 - and this is at the end of time, alright? We’re now in the time period of the Tribulation about to start because they’re looking for someone to break the title deed, break open the seals on the tile deed to the earth, you remember, and no one was found. And so, they’re - Jesus, the Lamb, is breaking those seals. That’s the context here. So, we’re talking about near the end of human history, the judgements of God are about to be unleashed on the earth.

And in chapter 4 it describes these creatures made by God. Look down in verse... Well, let’s start at verse 1: “After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, ‘Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.’ [This, itself, is an angel.]. Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne [and it describes this majestic scene]. And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, like an emerald in appearance. Around the throne [are these beings] were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders...” I think these are representative of the church and, you know, you can read about that. We’ve talked about that. We went through this material when we studied eschatology. But I think you have here representatives of the church. Twenty-four, of course, being significant of the twelve tribes of Israel and these twelve apostles. And it says they were “clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads.” From the throne, they’re all these things going on. You have the seven spirits of God and there were these living creatures. One category of the angels is mentioned here - these four living creatures, the seraphim and the cherubim are in this passage. You look down and you find these living creatures praising God in verse 9. And then you get down to chapter 5:11: “Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands...” And they’re all extending praise to the lamb, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”

And so, you see this scene in heaven, and you see this throughout the book of Revelation. This is just the first time we get this glimpse. But every time we get to glimpse into heaven, you see these holy angels. They’re still there. Okay? And there’s no indication that they ever go away.

What about the others? What about the fallen angels? Well, if you turn back to Revelation 20 you see, during the millennial period, chapter 20:2 says... You have a holy angel in verse 1 coming down from heaven holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. ”And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer...” And then, he’s released for a short time. Down in verse 7, he’s release but at the very end, you have every rebel against God, down in verse 11 and following, every rebel against God thrown into the Lake of Fire. And by the way, hell was prepared for that. Didn’t Jesus say that in Matthew? He said, “hell which was prepared for the devil and his angels”. So, that is their ultimate resting place. Now, there are apparently certain fallen angels who are so vile and so wicked that they’re not even allowed out of hell itself at this point. And you see a little bit about that in, I believe, it’s 2 Peter.

So, that’s kind of an overview. You have holy angels - no reason that they ever go away. There’s no indication they ever go away. They’ll always be those who worship and serve God and serve the saints. And, in fact, we’re told that they won’t go away because in 1 Corinthians 6, we’re told that we, in eternity, will judge angels. When it’s talking about lawsuits, you know, how are you submitting these lawsuits before pagans because we will one day judge angels. So, there’s no indication that the holy angels ever go away. And the fallen angels will continue to do the work of Satan, under the control of Satan - under the control of God, I should say - until his time. And his time comes, ultimately, at the end of the millennial period when they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire forever and forever.

C.J. Blankenship: Okay. Thanks! Now, my second question was that, like you even said there was, I guess, a battle in heaven or something...

Pastor Tom: Uh-hmmm.

C.J. Blankenship: ...and if angels and demons if they, like, do they fight and, if they do, can they - I guess, would it be like a fight... How would it... I guess I’m saying like could they be killed or because I know they’re already spirits, so can’t, you know, die and go to heaven or something. So, what, I mean...

Pastor Tom: No, there seems to be every indication that angels are eternal beings. There is fighting obviously. We’re told about that in Revelation 12. We’re also told that in Daniel. There’s this, you remember, Daniel prays, and the angel tries to come to help him and is told that I wasn’t able to come immediately because there was this conflict with another demon (basically) ruling over a region. So, there is conflict, there is fighting, but in terms of it being terminal or permanent, you know, annihilation - no, there doesn’t seem to be an indication of that. They are spirit beings who take form of various kinds. We’re told - you know, Jesus tells us that when we enter heaven we’ll be like the angels and that we’ll be neither marrying nor given in marriage. They’re always referred to in male pronoun. There’s no indication of the little female cherubs floating around. Nothing like that Scripture. That’s how they’re described but they’re not human. They’re supernatural creatures.

We did... I think I did a study on that too if you want to get a little more information on that. Early on when we were talking about Satan and angels and demons, I kind of filled that out a little more; that’s just kind of rough sketch. But in the end, the amazing thing about angels is that they exist to worship and serve God and, according to Hebrews, to serve us. Really amazing reality! These supernatural creatures! And I love the picture of them in Scripture at several places in the New Testament where they’re looking. You know, Peter talks about these things about salvation that the angels desire to look into. They want to understand. And in Colossians, I think it is, where it talks about the fact that when God works this great plan of salvation, it’s to put Himself on display and it’s like the gallery watching this is angels. We think about the world being all about us, but the world is really all about God and putting Himself on display before every being in the universe, including these amazing beings, supernatural beings, created to worship and serve God, and to serve the saints.

C.J. Blankenship: Okay, thank you very much!

Pastor Tom: You’re welcome.

Yes, Sir!

Ray Bourgeois: My name is Ray Bourgeois. I’m a pastor. My question is from 1 Peter 1:3.

Pastor Tom: 1 Peter 1:3

Ray Bourgeois: It’s Peter’s greeting and verse 3 he says, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ...” In reading that, you know, the question is, how can God be the god of God? If it’s reading like I see that it’s “Blessed be the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ...”

Pastor Tom: Yeah. Right. Well, I think what you have to realize is that he is, here, basically introducing his book, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead...” You have to understand that Jesus became... Jesus was eternally God, okay? There’s no question about that. You understand that. I don’t need to spend a lot of time proving that to you. Jesus has existed eternally as God. We’ve talked about that in so many cases, in so many places in Scripture. Jesus became man. At the incarnation, Jesus took on full humanity.

I was talking with someone about this this morning. It’s so easy for us to get distorted views of what that is. The Council of Chalcedon defined the relationship of those two natures. Jesus was at the same time fully God and fully man. That means He was and is everything that God is, and He became and continues to be everything that man is except for sin. Everything you are, Jesus became and continues to be except for sin. That means He has a material nature, a physical part of His human being, and He has an immaterial part of His human nature, a soul. Jesus is fully human in every sense that you are. That nature is permanently united to His divine nature. They are not mixed, they don’t become some new substance, and they can never be separated. The Council of Chalcedon defined that very clearly.

And so, when you look at Jesus Christ, understand that He was eternally God, continues to be God. He became also completely man and continues to be that. Even in my prayer tonight, I’m just struck with that. Jesus didn’t come for 33 years to become one of us. I mean, I could kind of understand that. God becoming man for a short time and then, “Whoosh, I’m out of here!” But that isn’t it at all. Jesus became everything we are and will continue to be that throughout eternity. That’s the amazing part, is He voluntarily has become one of us. Our Creator has become one of us for eternity.

But when you go back then - let’s go back to before the incarnation. We’re talking about before Bethlehem, before He becomes a man. He is eternally God. In His deity, He has a relationship with the other two members of the Trinity. We worship one God in three persons - one God, three persons. One substance, three distinct persons. That’s the evidence of the Scripture. That’s the evidence of the New Testament. You see at Jesus’ baptism, don’t you? He’s being baptized. Jesus is clearly there. The Father speaks from heaven and says, “This is My beloved Son, listen to [hear] Him!” and the Spirit descends in the form of a dove to confirm that He is in fact the Messiah to John the Baptist.

Now, there is a flawed view of the nature of God called Sabellianism or Modalism (is actually the view in terms of the perspective of God) that says that there’s only one God and there aren’t three persons. He just kind of changes hats. So, they would see the baptism as, you know, I hate to even describe it this way, but this is essentially the picture. It’s kind of like smoke and mirrors. You know, there’s only one person and he’s being baptized. At the same time, he’s trying to speak from heaven. At the same time, he’s descending. There’s only one God wearing different hats.

That’s not what the Scriptures teach. There is one God in three eternally distinct persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There is some relationship between the members of the Trinity that is best described as that of a father and a son. Doesn’t mean it’s everything that an earthly father and son are. Doesn’t mean that Jesus didn’t exist but came into existence through some work of the Father. Doesn’t mean that at all. But there is something in the nature of the relationship between the first person of the Trinity and the second person of the Trinity that can be best described as father and son. And that was true in eternity past, it was true when He was here, and it will be true in the future.

So, in what sense is then, back to the specific question, what sense is God the Father, the God of our Lord Jesus Christ. Well, only in one sense, I think, and that’s in the sense of His humanity. He is related to the Father eternally as Son. But when He submitted Himself to humanity, when He became fully human, then it’s also correct for Him to say, “My God, my Father”. Remember, even on the cross, what did He cry out? Those words from Psalm 22, “My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?”

By the way, that was the... I think I’m correct here. I think my memory serves me right. That was the only time in Jesus’ earthly life when He didn’t refer to God as father, when He spoke to God differently than father. He called Him, “My God, my God”. And I think that was because of the bearing of our sin and the pouring out of God’s wrath against Him on the cross.

So, I think that’s the only sense in which we can say that the Father is the God of our Lord Jesus Christ - in His humanity. The relationship they bear outside of His humanity is that of father and son. They’re best described as father and son. Okay?

Jordan Dees: I’m Jordan Dees. I have two questions. One question comes actually out of Hebrews. In three places in Hebrews, it says that Jesus was made perfect by His suffering or through His suffering.

Pastor Tom: Right.

Jordan Dees: I know it doesn’t mean that He was sinful, but in what sense was He made perfect?

Pastor Tom: Well, I think you have to understand that He learned, and Hebrews makes this point, He learned obedience by the things that He suffered. You have to go back to Jesus’ humanity. It really plays into what we were just talking about. When you say that Jesus became fully human Jesus did not, at the moment of His conception, become a fully mature human being. He developed. He grew. In fact, several times early in, for example, in Luke it mentions that development, that just like you developed in various ways (socially and physically and mentally and spiritually), Jesus Christ as a human being developed. He wasn’t... You know, you read those apocryphal stories of Jesus being the, you know, the kid who lifts the huge boulder, you know, read all those apocryphal stories of these sort of things and He knew everything. Jesus, in His humanity, chose to voluntarily limit the exercise of His attributes so that He didn’t cheat. Jesus didn’t come into the world and become one of us and cheat His way along by always using His deity to get Himself out of trouble. He submitted Himself to human life as you and I go through it.

And so, it doesn’t mean that He was sinful. That’s very clear. There was no sin in Him. The statements are very clearly made. Satan had nothing in Him with which to grasp. He’s called the sinless one - holy, harmless, and undefiled. There was no sin whatsoever. So, when we talk about Jesus growing, His maturing, His learning obedience, we’re not saying that He was disobedient; we’re saying that He went through a process of development whereby He was, and over time and even through the suffering, both grew in His spirit as well as (humanly speaking) that He proved the reality of His character and who He was through that suffering.

So, you have two things going on. In one case, there is development. I think the Scripture makes clear that He developed as a human being in the same way you and I develop, without sin, but still developing. And I think you also have those sufferings proving who He was specifically.

So, I think the point of Hebrews, though, if you back up and look at the bigger picture, the point of Hebrews in making that point... Basically, Hebrews can be divided into, in the early chapters, into two parts. Chapters 1-7 really tell us that Jesus is superior in His person to all those who have gone before Him - angels, Moses, you know, the priests before, etc. He is superior in His person. You get to chapter 8 through chapter 10:18, and you have Jesus’ superior in His work, in His ministry, in His sacrifice, and what He accomplished. But in those sections, what you have is the recognition that Jesus was completely qualified to be our sacrifice because it’s making the point that A) He was fully human, and He suffered, and He grew, and He developed. So, He was qualified to be our sacrifice because He was fully human. At the same time, the fact that He was completely perfect through that, the fact that He was obedient, the fact that He maintained that obedience, shows that He is qualified before God to be our sacrifice. He was without blemish and without spot.

So, I think, in the context of Hebrews, that’s what he’s arguing. He’s saying He and He alone was the only one qualified to be our sacrifice, to be our great high priest, and to be our sacrifice, because He was... He learned... He lived like us. You know, Hebrews makes the point, as you get into chapter, I think it’s chapter 5, yeah, that He was a perfect high priest. “For every high priest [chapter 5:1] taken from among men is appointed on behalf of men in things pertaining to God, in order to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins; he can deal gently with the ignorant and misguided, since he himself also is beset with weakness...” And he goes on to say, basically, in several places - and that’s the context you’re talking about by the way. You get down to verse 8: “Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation...”

So, there’s the argument. He’s saying a high priest had to, on the one hand, be able to understand the people and their infirmities. Jesus qualified because He lived as one of us, among us. He learned obedience through the things He suffered. On the other hand, He had to be perfect, and He’s qualified on that end too, because He never sinned in that process. Okay? That’s the larger context of what the writer of Hebrews is trying to say, is He is the perfect high priest because He can understand us, and He can represent us before God, and He’s the perfect sacrifice because He is perfect in His obedience to God and yet also divine. So, I mean He is the one who can fulfill all those Old Testament types. Okay?

Oh, you got a second one. Sorry!

Jordan Dees: Sorry! Since we’ve been talking so much about Jesus’ humanity, this verse was actually in our Sunday school class this morning in talking about…

Pastor Tom: Where are we now?

Jordan Dees: ...sin. James 1:14... It’s... Well, starting in 13: “Let no one say when he is tempted, ‘I am being tempted by God’; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived...” In what way, then, was Jesus tempted because obviously He wasn’t tempted by His own lust?

Pastor Tom: Sure. Well, in this passage, you have a key to that, because you have two things happening here. First of all, you have, in our case, we are enticed by our own lust. But the word “carried away”, it’s interesting because the Greek word there is a fishing term, and it describes what happens when a fish is sitting back in the reeds looking at that hook and bait. He is drawn out by something external. In the fish’s case, it is both the external bait and the internal desire for that worm, that whatever that is that’s on the hook.

The same is true for us. How are we tempted? Well, usually the way it works is we’re going about doing our own thing. You know, we’re working, trying to do what we’re supposed to do, and something external offers itself as a bait. And immediately, something inside of us, our own craving, wants that and is drawn to it. So, that’s that picture of the temptation we face.

Now, how was Jesus’ temptation different? Jesus had no fallenness. He had no sin within His own heart. There was no lust, no craving. So, His temptation was external to Him, whereas in our case, there may be, you know, maybe we’re trying to do what we’re supposed to do, and something presents itself as a temptation, external to us, and immediately our heart responds and craves and wants that. In Jesus’ case, the temptation was only external. It was the external temptation that presented itself. There was nothing in Him that resonated with that as there is with us. There was nothing in His heart that wanted Him then to pursue that and chase after that, because He was untainted by our sin and our fallenness. So, in His case, he was absolutely tempted, but He was tempted from without, not by something within Him responding and chasing after that and longing for that. Okay?

By the way, it was still real temptation. You tell me. Which person endures the greater torture: the person who gives in and quits and gives up and gives the information to the person torturing or the person who never gives in? It’s the same thing with Christ. We reach a threshold where we give in to temptation. Jesus never did. He ran it out to its extreme and never gave in to that temptation. So, His temptation was like ours in kind but much greater than ours, but unlike ours, in that there was nothing inside of Him that resonated with and responded to that external temptation. Okay?

MC: Michael is next.

Pastor Tom: Okay, Michael.

Michael Ryan: I’m Michael Ryan. I just wanted to know, in Revelation 20:7, how it talks about, after 1000 years, Satan will be let loose, and he will roam the earth. I don’t really understand that. Is that him just going out and gathering up people to make another battle with Christ?

Pastor Tom: Yeah

Michael Ryan: Because I thought he’d learned his lesson the first time, you know, at Armageddon.

Pastor Tom: Yeah, you know, it’s not about a learning a lesson. Remember, Satan has an incompletely - a heart that is completely given over to evil. He knows he’s going to lose. As Luther said, “Satan is God’s devil.” It’s like God has Satan on a leash. Satan knows he can only go so far. You see a picture of that in Job 1, Job 2. You know, he can only go as far as God lets him. And so, he knows he’s a defeated enemy. It’s not about that. It’s about his having such a rebel heart that he will not give into God regardless. And so, you know, it’s not even thinking he’s going to win. I don’t think. I don’t think there’s any indication that he thinks he’s really going to win in the end. I think it’s the ultimate expression of rebellion.

We see this even humanly, don’t we? I mean there are people who die with that sort of fist raised high knowing that, in fact, because the law of God is written on their heart. God is visibly obvious in the universe He created, according to Romans 1. They know these things and yet they will not submit their wills to God. It’s the very same thing with Satan.

So, in Revelation 20, I mean, he goes on to describe it in verse 7: “...Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth... to gather them together for the war [so, people who are born during that period of time but are not followers of Christ, will be gathered together for war]; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.”

This proves again, by the way, that a perfect environment doesn’t ensure a person comes to genuine faith in God and faith in Christ. This will be a perfect environment like Eden. Jesus Christ will rule and reign with a rod of iron, and yet, without the work of the Spirit, without the work of redeeming grace, you have people as the sand on the seashore, rising against Christ at the end of that thousand-year period. And it says, “And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

So, yeah, it’s one last stand. But I think, you know... I love the line from John Milton, in Paradise Lost, where he has Satan making the speech to the fallen angels in hell and he says this. He says, “Better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven.” I think that’s the heart of Satan.

Randy McAllister: In light of that, with regards to... Randy McAllister. With regards to 1 or 2 Peter 3:10, where it talks about the day of Lord and everything being burned up, in light of the bowls and trumpets, where the world is going to totally be destroyed - no fresh water, every dead sea animal and all that, there will have to be some type of miraculous reclamation either prior to or in the early stage of the Millennium. Is it within the context to say that that text in Peter could reference that early reclamation or is that mandated that that’s at the end of the thousand years and after God has “reclamated” it, He re-burns it at the end of the thousand years?

Pastor Tom: You’re talking about 2 Peter 3?

Randy McAllister: 3:10, yes.

Pastor Tom: Yeah. No, I think what you have, in 2 Peter 3, is you have the final, the final destruction of this current earth, personally. I think... Because he goes on to say that he makes a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. And I think, when you look at the description here, you look at the context of the coming day of the Lord earlier, the reminder that everything we know is one day going to be burned up. The point here isn’t really even the reclamation, although that happens. The point here is everything we currently know and depend on and live on and exist on is going to be destroyed.

So, what kind of people ought you to be in light of that? Don’t get tied down to the stuff here. If you look at 2 Peter 3, he says in verse 10: “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar...” I forget now exactly. I don’t have my Greek text here. I forget the word “will pass away”. But, if I remember correctly, it is a word which implies destruction - “...with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with an intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!” Everything in this passage seems to imply a total destruction. And then, in light of that, verse 13: “But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

It seems to me that this has more to do with that total end time, when God is finished with this earth and completely destroys the current heavens and earth and makes a new one, not the reclamation of the earth before the millennium. Obviously, you’re right, that will have to happen because God will wreak havoc on the world. But I don’t think this passage, personally, I don’t think this passage is referring to that.

Randy McAllister: So, that happens after the New Jerusalem comes down to this new burned up - the new world? It doesn’t come down to this sphere.

Pastor Tom: I think the... What you have... You have the new heavens and new earth described at the end of Revelation. I think that’s what’s described or mentioned here in verse 13.

Randy McAllister: Okay. Alright, thank you.

Pastor Tom: It’s that, what you read about in the end of Revelation, is what he’s describing here in verse 13, that new heavens and new earth in which righteousness dwells. Also, when we were going through the eschatology series, Randy, I did a message on the new heavens and the new earth. I covered this text then and we talked about, you know, that new heavens and new earth and what that’s like. If you’re interested, you can chase that down online.

Yes, Sir. Just a couple more questions here.

Stafford Milton: Okay. I’m Stafford Milton and I was wondering, when Satan first rebelled, did he know the full extent of God’s power, and if he did, did he know that his rebellion was going to be doomed in the end?

Pastor Tom: Well, I think... You know, sin is deceptive. Pride is deceptive. Did he know the power of God? Did he know the fact that he was created? Yeah, I think he did know that. He was made - the brilliant, really, the shining star of God’s creation was this creature and, as I said, I think it would be right to say the Prime Minister of Heaven. Next to God, he seems to be at the top of the food chain in terms of these beings God created. Did he fully grasp everything? I think initially, before sin, I think he understood who God was. He understood who he was. He understood that God was in charge. All of those things. But pride comes into his heart and that pride begins to skew his perspective. It skews our perspective, doesn’t it? It makes us think irrational things and I think, at that point, that sin is irrational. I mean, isn’t it true that all sin is insane? Think about your own sin. It’s insane! If you really believe God is who He said, you really believe sin is what it is, what it’s described as in Scripture, then it’s a form of insanity. So, I think what happens there with Satan, and I think it’s described, as I said, in the book of Ezekiel, but I think you have a righteous being who allows in his mind a process of thinking to take place, much as you see with Eve in the Garden of Eden. The difference being there - Eve was deceived, Satan was not. He was lifted up with pride in his own heart.

Did he convince himself at the beginning he could win? Well, maybe so. I don’t think we’re really told that in a clear way. But it became obvious pretty soon that wasn’t going to happen, because he’s thrown out of heaven. He makes no headway on God, no headway on the holy angels, and now he serves the purposes of God, and he knows that. I mean, you got Job where he shows up and asks permission to do something to Job. He’s on a leash. God has him on a leash, and he knows that. But he’s just like my untrained dog was, you know? He wants his own way anyway even though he knows I’m the alpha dog, he still wants his own way, alright? And I think that’s the way the heart of sin is. And once Satan gave himself to sin, in that way, he is like us. Sin has produced in his heart the same kind of wretchedness and pride and evil that it produces in our hearts. Okay?

Stafford Milton: Okay, I had one more.

Pastor Tom: Okay, real quick.

Stafford Milton: Okay, when did God choose to create a place He calls heaven to reside in and have angels to glorify Him and when did He choose to create hell to store all the fallen souls, because it’s like, if he knew that people were going to choose to reject Him, He could have made it before, but He could have also made it after the fall? So, I’ve always wondered about that.

Pastor Tom: You know what? You have opened a huge question. It’s a question that is battled out between the supralapsarians and the infralapsarians, that is, those who believe... And I’m not even going to go there right now because most... But if you have that question, you want it answered, come up and see me afterwards, because basically it’s this; I’ll give you the big picture.

There’s a debate among theologians about when God decreed certain things to be. We know He decreed before He created. He made a decision in eternity past, when there was nothing but God, to do certain things. We can only conjecture logically from the Scripture the order in which He made those decrees. And the bottom line is, most... I would be in the place where I would say, and there are those who would disagree with me, but I would say God decreed first to make man in His own image and then He decreed to allow the fall and then He decreed, out of that, that there would be hell for those who chose to follow Satan and His angels.

But as far as when, I mean, the big answer is eternity past, and He made that decision in light of the decision to allow the fall. That’s the big issue is why did God go ahead and create when He knew man would fall and He decreed to allow the fall. John MacArthur did an interesting message on that, the last message of Shepherd’s Conference on Friday night. If you’re interested, it was a great summary I thought of the presence of evil in the world and why God would allow it. So, I’d encourage you to get that. I think we’ll probably get a set of those CDs or DVDs for the library so you can listen to it, okay?

Stafford Milton: Okay.

Pastor Tom: Alright. Yes.

Jory Aubrey: Alright, I’m Jory Aubrey. Going back to the Resurrection chapter, 1 Corinthians 15. I was studying that. You know, it starts out Paul defending the resurrection of Christ, giving all the facts about it. And then in verse 12, here, you know, here’s: “Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?” And then he goes on to say the “what ifs”? What if there was no resurrection? Here’s the alternative. So, then he goes, starting verse 20 down to 28, then he goes back to the facts and what’s going to happen and what are the fruits of that resurrection, the results of that. So, then in 29 there’s an otherwise. So, what’s the alternative? If... Here’s my thought, that is it? I realize that we have, at the end of the verse, we have a plural pronoun, them, but is it referring to Christ? In other words, if Christ wasn’t raised from the dead, why are people being baptized in His name?

Pastor Tom: In the flow of the context, he’s arguing that the dead are raised and he’s proving that in several different ways. And so, he’s basically issuing another argument for the reality of the resurrection from the dead, not only for Christ, but for believers. Okay?

As far as the specifics of what baptism for the dead is, that’s a separate issue, but the... Don’t miss the main argument. The main argument comes in the second-half of the verse: “If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?” He’s saying there is a resurrection and he’s saying that in a variety of ways as he flows through this chapter. Okay? But that’s the big point.

By the way, I love this chapter. Maybe this is a great place to end because he does go through, and he begins in verse 9 saying, “I’ve been given this opportunity. I’ve been given God’s grace to serve and minister.” And then in verse 12 he says, “But what if what I’m preaching isn’t true?” And he goes through this list of ifs. And it’s like a bad dream. It’s like, what if this is true? What if this didn’t happen? And he goes through this list of the consequences if Christ was not raised. But then I love how he turns in verse 20: “But now Christ has been raised from the dead...” It’s like he wakes up from a bad dream and says, “As bad as all of those things would be if Jesus had not been raised, it isn’t true. He has been raised from the dead.” And we gather on the first day of the week, even as we do now, to worship because He has been raised from the dead. We serve a risen Lord and that’s what makes all of this matter. That’s what makes our lives matter. That’s why we worship our Lord, because He is alive.

Well, thank you for your questions. I hope some of that was helpful as we traced our way through and whatever was, and I hope you’ll forget. Okay?

Let’s pray together and then we’ll be dismissed. Alright? Let’s pray.

Father, thank You for the time we’ve had together tonight. Thank You for Your Word. Thank You for its clarity. And Lord we want to be diligent students of it. We want to know it and to be able to give an answer for the hope that lies within us, to be able to respond. And Lord, I pray that You would give us a heart that loves Your Word, that longs to understand it, that longs more than understanding it for the mental sake. Father, help us to understand it in a life changing way, in a way that affects the choices we make and the decisions we make. Even as we were reminded from 2 Peter 3, Father, help us to live as those who know that this world and everything in it will be burned up, will go away someday. So, help us to live for those things that are eternal, even this week. Help us to make decisions on that basis. Father, remind us what kind of people we should be, knowing that all these things will be burned up, and that only You and only Your Word, and only the people around us, will go with us into eternity. Help us to live in the light of that. We pray in Jesus’ name and for His sake, Amen!