Q & A

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Well a couple of time of year we have a question and answer time on Sunday evening.  It’s been a while; the last one was in December of last year, and so when we heard about the cancellation I thought about doing a message there are a couple of things that are sort of on my heart that I will probably do sometime this fall. But we decided instead to go with a question and answer to give you a chance to raise whatever questions might be on your heart and mine.  So I would encourage you to do that.  Now here’s how it works.  It’s not stump the pastor night.  That’s not the goal.  I can promise you you are more than capable of doing that.  But instead it’s to ask whatever questions you really have had, perhaps in light of something we’ve been studying, maybe something you’ve been studying, or maybe some of the issues of our times.  Some things that have been showing up in the news, whatever it might be.  We’ll try to then come to the scripture and say, okay how does the scripture address this issue.  And let’s do try to keep it to the scripture.  I got word this afternoon that there were a couple of families, or there was one family in particular that was having a discussion over lunch about what questions they could ask tonight and one of the little boys came up with the perfect question.  He said, “I know Mom, we’ll ask him the difference between and alligator and a crocodile.”  Now I can exhaust everything I know about that in about 2 minutes.  And so that’s probably not a good place to go, but any questions related to the Christian life, the scripture, whatever it might be. I’d love for you to do that.  There are mikes as you can see in three places here, so you just come up when your question is ready starting now in fact you go ahead while I’m still talking, but come up and stand there and then once I hear your question I’ll do my best to answer it.  Don’t wait until I’m done with that question for you to get up because here’s how it works, if I don’t see anybody else at the mike I can just keep answering this question for a long time.  And so I don’t want to do that to you, so if you have a question make sure you go ahead and get up, it’s not rude to do that while I’m answering the first question and that way I’ll know that there are others.  I also have a couple of other things kind of in the back of my mind that I’ll address if we have a lag somewhere.  But anyway hopefully you understand how it all works and I’ll do my best to answer whatever questions you have.  Alright now here’s the thing, you have to first of all introduce yourself and then shoot your question.  Alright.

I’m Suzanne Musgrove, and I have loved ones who claim to be believers and they were married but had difficulties just getting along, arguing a lot, so they divorced.  It’s been about, there’s no infidelity, it’s been about three years and we’ve been hopeful that they would reconcile.  And now I just got word that now they are looking at dating and starting a new life.  And I didn’t know the position on the scriptures on something like that and how I should feel about that. 

Yeah, no great question, Suzanne.  You know this is increasingly an issue in our culture.  I’m sure everyone in this room knows someone who claims to be a believer who has pursued a divorce.  So the question is what do the scriptures teach about divorce. Let’s turn to Matthew.  Matthew chapter 5, they’re actually, the scripture has a lot to say about divorce and Jesus addresses it on two occasions and in addition to that you have a passage in the epistles that address this issue. Let me give you the big picture, the big picture is and the Old Testament is very clear about this the prophet Malachi says, “God hates divorce.”  He was very angry with the professing people of God for putting away the wives of their youth.  The ones they married when they were young.  And so it’s very clear that God hates divorce, He hates it and yet, He does allow for two exceptions where divorce is permitted for those who know and love Him.  Those two exceptions are infidelity and the second is if an unbeliever in the marriage wants out.  Let me show you both of these.

First of all the first legitimate reason for a believer to divorce; Matthew chapter 5 verse 31, “It is said, ‘Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’; This is what the rabbi’s taught and it’s a quotation from the Old Testament, it’s an emphasis that they made and that is, you know in Jesus’ time there were discussions about who could divorce and for what reason and it got to the point there was one rabbi who said, for any reason at all, even if you find someone who’s more attractive.  You just need to make sure you do what the Old Testament says and that is give her a certificate of divorce.  But, Jesus said let me correct your flawed thinking about the Old Testament.  “I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason on unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.”  Now, I can’t exhaust all that this text says in just a few minutes, I’m going to answer the question but I encourage you to go listen to particularly Mark chapter 10.  I did an extensive series; I think three or four messages on this issue.  But what is clear here, is notice Jesus says, let’s take first without the exception.  ‘Everyone who divorces his wife makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.’  You find in the parallel text that it’s also true for the person who does the divorcing. Everybody involved in this divorce is sinning against God.  Except, notice the exception clause, ‘for the reason of unchastity.’ 

Now the nature in exception clause in any language is that if the conditions of the exception are met, it negates everything else.  And so there is a clear exception here and if the exception clause is met then let’s read it the opposite way, verse 32, if it’s ‘for the reason of unchastity, anyone who divorces his wife does not make her commit adultery and whoever marries that person does not commit adultery.’ In other words, it doesn’t become, those involved don’t become guilty of sinfully divorcing when there is the ground met of unchastity.  So what is unchastity?  The Greek word is porneia; it’s the word from which we get the English word pornography. But it’s not talking about lust here. It’s talking specifically, this word porneia is used in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament, it is used very specifically for sexual interaction with another entity. I hate to say it that way but of course as you know there are a variety of ways that we can sin with our bodies, whether it’s with a person of the opposite sex, the same sex, incest, beastiality, etc.  And this word is used for that sort of sin.  It is the physical interaction with another entity. 

So Jesus says, that if there is unchastity involved, if there is sexual sin with another entity against the marriage then it is not illegitimate to divorce.  Now, I would hasten to say that I don’t think where there is one sin, where there in one time sin and that person is repentant that this says therefore you have the permission to run and divorce.  I think the idea here is a person who is set in being unfaithful to that marriage.  A person who has a pattern of unfaithfulness, and I think Hosea manifests that as well. However, that said, I think in the Old Testament times a person who committed adultery, the very first time that happened and they got caught they would be stoned and the innocent party would be free to re-marry, so we aren’t legalistic about that as a church, but I think the spirit of the passage is where there is a person who has a pattern of unfaithfulness, sexual unfaithfulness to the marriage.  That’s reason number one. 

You can see that reiterated again in Matthew 19, where Jesus is asked about divorce.  And He reiterates the same thing, verse 9, “I say to you whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries (the same word by the way) another woman commits adultery.”  So here the person doing the divorcing commits adultery if he remarries without the ground of immorality being met.  So, you can see this same passage by the way in Mark 10 and that’s where I dealt with it at length.  So, reason number one:  legitimate reasons for Christians to divorce is when there is sexual unfaithfulness in the marriage.  When there is sexual unfaithfulness with another entity.  Okay, that’s how that word is used without exception in the Old Testament. 

Second reason for a Christian to legitimately divorce is found in First Corinthians chapter 7, First Corinthians chapter 7, verse 12. Paul is dealing with singleness and marriage in this chapter and he says in verse 12, “But to the rest I say, not the Lord,” now that doesn’t mean he’s undermining his authority to speak as an apostle.  He’s simply saying there, Jesus when He was on the earth, didn’t speak to this specific issue, but I’m going to and when he speaks to it, he’s speaking as an apostle, he’s speaking as one who speaks with the authority of Christ.  And he says, “if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever,”  So here you have a Christian married to an unbeliever.  ‘And if she (the unbeliever) consents to live with him, he must not divorce her.’  If the unbeliever in the marriage says, you know I love you, I don’t agree with this whole religion thing you’ve got going on, I don’t agree with your faith, but I love you, I want us to be together then Paul says stay together.  Verse 13, same thing the opposite way, a woman who has an unbelieving husband and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away or divorce her husband.  Verse 14, ‘for the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.’  Now that’s a difficult verse, but the basic essence is clear. The essence is there is spiritual benefit to the other people in that home if the believer stays there.  If that marriage and home stays together, there’s benefit to that unbelieving spouse.  He gets to see a Christian life lived out, he gets to see as First Peter 3 talks about, the life lived in such a way it can be won without a word.  Also, the children have the benefit of being under the influence, a godly influence and taught the scripture.  So there’s benefit is what Paul’s saying.  Verse 15, ‘Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace.’  In other words, if it gets to the point where the unbelieving spouse wants to leave, then the believing spouse is to allow them to leave.  The only bonds in this passage are the marriage bonds.  He’s saying it’s okay for that marriage to end. 

This has been the consistent view of the church since the Reformation.  And that is that there are two biblical grounds for Christians to divorce and only two. One is where there is sexual unfaithfulness with another entity against that marriage.  In the Old Testament they would have been dead, so the innocent party would be free to re-marry.  That’s number one.  Number two is where there is a believer and an unbeliever married and the unbeliever says I want out.  That’s it. Search the scripture all you want you won’t find any other grounds. 

Now, let me just say that if a woman or the children are at risk in the case of abuse, while the bible doesn’t allow for divorce at that stage it does allow for a separation for the protection of that woman or those children. You don’t have to stay in that situation.  And so that’s one little caveat that I would give and we would argue by the way, on the greater to the lesser.  In the Old Testament a person could take another person’s life in self-defense and so if they could take a person’s life in self-defense then the woman can withdraw from living with that husband in self-defense for physical safety.  Other than that though there are no other biblical grounds, so what is your response as a believer where there is an unbiblical divorce or the pursuit of an unbiblical divorce?  You’re right back in Matthew 18, gently, kindly you’re going to that person and saying, ‘how are you justifying this?’  What are your biblical grounds for pursuing this, show me from the scripture how you would argue that this is acceptable and you urge them to obey Christ?  Clearly the responsibility of two professing Christians is for that marriage to be together and for them not to be pursuing outside of that.  You read those texts in Matthew, Christ couldn’t be any clearer, to divorce and to pursue another relationship without these grounds is to be culpable for adultery and to be living in a state of adultery until there’s repentance. 

Some of you sinfully divorced, okay if you sinfully divorced what do you do?  Is there no hope for you?  Do you live the rest of your life is some sort of a state of culpability for adultery? No.  There’s the grace of God.  You acknowledge that you sinned in what you did, you confess it and make it right, and you stay committed to that marriage that you’re in.  I deal with that more at length, a lot of the more specific cases in that series from Mark 10.  So you can go back and listen to those.  But that’s the big picture.  Okay? 

Rene Bourgeois, in light of what’s going on in the world today in reference to Israel, can Israel cease to be in the way that we know it right now?  And for instance be completely taken over by a Muslim entity and to where there is no Israel?  Is that a feasible thing that can be happening even right now and be part of the Lord’s decree?

Yeah, that is a really important question because like a lot of Christians are skewed in their perspective about this.  You know a lot of people live in prophecy, they love prophecy and mistakenly back in my generation when Israel came into existence in 1948, there were a lot of people that took the verse in the Olivet discourse that says in this generation shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled and said that has to be Israel being back in the land and being made a nation and this is the beginning of the timetable of biblical prophecy and we’re near the end.  Well first of all that’s not what that verse means.  In context in the Olivet discourse, Jesus is saying the generation that experiences all of those signs at the end will not go away until the second coming until everything is consummated in the second coming of Christ. So it didn’t have anything to do, that passage doesn’t have anything to do with 1948 and the founding of Israel, number one. 

Number two, understand that while God still loves the ethnic descendants of Abraham, while He still has promises that He has not fulfilled to them, that doesn’t mean that the nation Israel as it appears now in the land of Israel is in some protected sense God’s people.  Those people are many of them, most of them are unbelievers, they don’t believe in the Messiah.  They rejected Him.  Beyond that, many of the people who live in Israel are secularists; they don’t really have any faith whatsoever.    They’re simply clinging to their ethnicity and the fact that they are descended from Abraham, and so don’t confuse all of that. Understand that there is coming a day, Romans chapter 11, when all Israel will be saved.  When God will redeem the ethnic descendants of Abraham in huge numbers, surrounding the end times and the return of Christ, they will look on Him Zechariah said, ‘whom they pierced, they will mourn for Him as an only Son and a fountain of cleansing will be opened.’  That’s going to happen.

But let’s talk about Israel right now and the land, to answer Rene’s question specifically.  We have no way biblically to argue that those, that that nation that’s now in the land will stay there until the end.  In fact they could be pushed off of that land and return countless other times between now and when the Lord returns.  I really think this is in the spirit of Acts chapter 1 when the Lord says, you know after the forty days, Jesus is teaching them, He’s preparing them for Him to leave, and they say, ‘is it at this time’, Acts chapter 1, ‘that you are going to return the kingdom?’  In fact turn to Acts chapter 1, I just want you to see this because this will answer so many of your questions about prophecy and when. That’s always the question, isn’t it? When?  Verse 6, Acts 1, “So when they had come together, the disciples were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?  He said to them,” notice He doesn’t say, oh that’s never going to happen, you need to be amillennialist.  No, He doesn’t say that’s not something they should expect.  He says, “It is not for you to know.”  And notice what He says, he says two things really.  “It is not for you to know times or epochs.”  These are two different points.  Times reflects the Greek word chronos, the word from which we get the word chronology.  In other words it’s not for you to know the clock time when all these things are going to happen. 

When I was growing up there was a man on Christian radio who wrote a book called 88 Reasons Christ Will Return in 1988. If you’re interested you can get a copy of that book really cheap today, I just want you to know that. This is a clear violation of what our Lord says; it is not for you to know the chronos, to know the timetable, to know when.  And secondly he says, it is not for you to know the epoch the kairos is the Greek word, the seasons.  You can’t even know the seasons, much less the timetable so don’t pick up your newspaper and try to discern the coming of Christ; try to discern how the end is coming to a conclusion.  Our Lord could be on a very tight time table.  We could be living in the end times and we need to live as though He could come back for His own tomorrow.  And that could happen.  But we also need to live as though we will live and die and another thousand years will pass as He allows time for the kingdom to expand and for others to come to faith in Christ.  So we can’t fall off the wagon either way, we can’t life as though it’s going to be a long time, just give up and forget it.  No, we live as though it could be tomorrow, because it could be.  But we also don’t assume that it will be tomorrow, or that the world events, you know I hear people say, oh this has to be it you know, it just couldn’t get any worse.  You know what if you were popped into 13^th century Europe you’d say it can get worse, okay, the plague and war – they really had reason to think this is it.  And that wasn’t it.  And that’s why Jesus said, to calm us, to keep us thinking biblically, it is not for you to know the chronos or the kairos; the time or even the epochs in which this in going to unfold.  It is rather, notice what he says in verse 7, ‘it is fixed by the Father’s authority; but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be my witnesses.’  He says look, you take care of your business and let God take care of His business. When it’s time, it’ll be time, until then you be faithful to what I’ve called you to do. 

But don’t think that our faith will somehow be destroyed if those enemies of Israel, the terrorist organizations in our lifetime push Israel off the map into the sea.  Your faith should not be rocked by that.  Because we don’t know if this is the time.  Eventually I believe Israel will be in the land at the very end, but we don’t know if this is it.  So, don’t be rocked either way.  Live faithfully, trust God to work it all out in His time. 

My name is Brian Ryan and I was handed this question to ask, so I think I understand the question.  There are some churches out there that teach in terms of sanctification that it’s all a work of God, that the believer has no part in it. And so therefore, there are some who will mature in holiness and some will not.  So the question, there’re two questions here, the first one is, does that belief have a theological name that you would apply to it? 

 Right. 

 And then, out of Philippians chapter 2 verse’s 12 and 13, how do you reconcile where it says, ‘now much more in my absence work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure?’

Yeah, let’s deal with the first question, and why don’t you stay there Brian, just stay there for a moment just in case I forget your second question.  I might get lost in my first answer and I don’t want to do that.

You can answer anything you want.

Yes there are names to the position that sanctification is solely a work of God.  There’re two theological words you need to know.  Well there’re more you need to know but these two, for this discussion. One is monergism, mono meaning one, erg-a unit of energy; one working; monergism.  The other is synergism, working together.  You get that, okay?  Biblically speaking salvation is monergistic, it is God working.  You cannot affect your own salvation.  Read Ephesians 2 you know I love that passage, it’s so clear, you were dead, and God made you alive.  That’s the new birth, that’s what God does.  That is monergistic.  God saved you.  He rescued you.  He gave you life.  I love the way Paul describes it in Second Corinthians 4, where he says you know the god of this world has blinded the minds of those who believe not lest the light of the glory of Christ should shine into them, and he said but in your case, I love this, he said in your case, the God who created all things said, ‘let there be light.’  That’s exactly what He did when He created the world and that’s exactly what He did when He opened your eyes to the gospel.  He said let there be light and there was light.  We sing that hymn by Wesley you know, my chains fell off, I was free, I rose went forth and followed You, followed Thee.  You know that is regeneration and that is monergistic, God alone working. 

What’s happened is there are some in the history of the church who have tried to make sanctification the process of becoming progressively more holy, also monergistic, one working, God working.  But what the scripture reflects is synergistic when it comes to sanctification. Not merely God working, but you working as well.  Now there are several theological tags that have gone to these positions.  One of them is really Wesleyanism; if you grew up connected to Methodism then you understand this.  It’s basically a view that you know, you get saved and you’re sort of toodling along at a spiritual flat line or you’re not really growing very much, and Dallas Theological sort of adapted this view for their sort of carnal Christian idea.  But you’re sort of living in a sort of really minimalistic Christianity.  And you pray and you have what they call a break through or a second work of grace and all of a sudden by that crisis experience, you go from being a spiritually shallow person to ratcheting up to hugely higher different level and now you live on the victorious Christian life.  This has as I said different tags, it’s Wesleyanism, it’s really also Lewis Sperry Chafer’s sort of carnal Christian mindset is related to that same idea.  And so the deeper life movement with the Keswick movement.  Let me just warn you, avoid Keswick teaching, Deeper Life teaching, like Watchman Nee, Witness Lee, that stuff is deadly to your spiritual life, because basically it teaches you, you can do nothing in your sanctification, so you just need to seek God and let Him zap you and someday He’ll zap you and you’ll ratchet up to a higher level and that’ll be how you become spiritual. 

A new approach to that same flawed idea in our day is the cross centered sanctification movement.  It’s led I think really by a man named Tullian Tchividjian.  I dealt with this back in the fall of last year.  A message I did if you’re interested I did called Creatively Dodging Sanctification where I dealt with this.  But there is a huge move right now in conservative evangelical Christianity to say you don’t need to work at your sanctification, all you need to do is just relax.  God’s going to do this thing.  Just keep rehearsing the gospel, and if you just keep rehearsing the gospel, rehearsing your justification then you’re going to become sanctified.  That isn’t what the scriptures teach. 

Let’s look at Philippians 2; I did remember the second question. Thank’s Brian, I appreciate it. Philippians 2 verse 12, here is the balance.  “So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” Now first of all what Paul doesn’t mean here is work toward your salvation as though your work accomplishes that.  How do I know that?  Well it goes against everything Paul says.  Read the book of Galatians.  But moreover, read Philippians 3, Philippians 3:1 to 11 where he gets to justification and he says listen there is nothing we contribute.  In fact keep you finger there in chapter 2 and just look over at chapter 3.  Notice the end of verse 8, ‘I want to gain Christ,’ verse 9, I want to ‘be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law keeping, but the righteousness which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.’  Clearly that’s what Paul believed about salvation.  So go back to verse 12 in chapter 2, he’s not saying work toward your salvation.  He’s saying now that you are in Christ, you need to work, you need to expend effort and the attitude you’re to do this with is fear and trembling.  So you’re to expend maximum effort, but here’s the key – you can’t for a moment think that your effort is going to accomplish your sanctification.  Or your effort is going to change you.  I can work as hard as I want, and I’m not going to change my heart.  I can seek to obey the scripture as much as I want to seek to obey the scripture and I can maybe make some progress in conforming my external behavior and even trying to reshape my thinking with the scripture, but I can’t change me.  Only God can change me.  So here’s how sanctification works, here’s the synergism that is sanctification.  I expend maximum effort and as I expend maximum effort to obey the scripture, God changes me. 

Notice verse 13, here’s why you’re to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, here’s why you’re to pursue obedience.  Notice that’s how he defines working out your salvation in verse 12, obeying.  You’re to obey, you’re to work hard to obey the scripture.  Why?  Verse 13, ‘For’ because, here’s why, ‘it is God who is at work in you.’  And what is God at work in you doing?  He is working in you ‘both to will and to work for His good pleasure.’  As you seek to obey, as you work out your own salvation, God is at work in you and He is changing your will so that your increasingly desire obedience, you increasingly desire what pleases Him and He’s then giving you the capacity to do that, the effort in order to please Him.  So there’s the balance; salvation, regeneration, monergistic only God works. He saves us.  Sanctification is synergistic.  I work; I expend maximum effort in doing what?  In trying to obey God’s word.  In trying to do what the scripture says.  And as I expend that maximum effort, God does what I could never do. He is as work in me to change my will and to change my capacity to obey. 

So, don’t be fooled by those promises.  You know wouldn’t we all love it if there was some magic formula to sanctification.  If you really could just pray a prayer and boom you’re there? Wouldn’t it be great?  God didn’t think so.  Because He said this is going to be a lifelong struggle.  You are going to fight your fallenness every day of your life. And you’re going to continue tooth and nail to pursue obedience to Christ in every area of your life and it’s going to be hard.  And the line is not going to look like this going up on a sort of straight diagonal, it’s going be more jagged, but the general trend is going to be up, because if you have spiritual life in you, you will manifest that life, just like a physically living person manifests that life.  There are vital signs that show there’s life, the same thing is true with a Christian.  You’re not going to be that sort of flat line carnal Christian deal living your whole life as though you don’t know Christ but like a pagan.  You’re going to see progress, because God is at work in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.  Okay?  Great question.

Who’s next here, go ahead.

During the

Oh, you have to start by introducing yourself.  Give us your name. 

My name is Sophia.

Sophia, great, now your question, go ahead.

During the one thousand year reign of Jesus’, will the Jews differ from the Gentiles and their duties?

Will the Jews what?  Read that again. Will the Jews differ from the Gentiles? 

During the one thousand year reign of Jesus’, will the Jews differ from the Gentiles and their duties?

Differ?  Will the Jews differ from the Gentiles?

Um hmm.

Okay, great, thank you Sophia.  There are, when you look at eschatology, there’s been a lot of discussion over the last 150 years and propounding an idea that’s called dispensationalism.  Now, we are dispensationalists as a church in only two ways.  First of all we believe that there is a difference between Old Testament Israel and the church.  Okay? We don’t believe that Old Testament Israel, the true people of God in the Old Testament were the church in same sense that the church exists from Pentecost on.  Jesus talks in Matthew 16 about the church in the future.  I will build my church.  And the church clearly comes into being, something profoundly new happens in Acts chapter 2.  So the question then is and oh by the second thing, we’re dispensationalists in two senses, one we believe there’s a difference in Old Testament Israel and the church, and secondly we believe that there is yet a future for the ethnic descendants of Abraham.  In other words there are promises God made to the ethnic descendants of Abraham, the Jews, that have not yet been fulfilled.  What are those promises?  Primarily they are the promises of redemption at the end.  They’re the promises that all Israel will be saved in Romans chapter 11 and in Zechariah.  But there is also in the millennial period, in the thousand years that ensues after the second coming when Jesus sets up His reign here on this planet, a renewed version of this planet, before at the end of that period He destroys this current universe in an act of un-creation according to Revelation chapter 20 and makes a new heaven and a new earth according to Revelation chapter 21 and 22. When that thousand years is here on this planet and Jesus rules and reigns, it’s clear from Old Testament prophecies that He will establish His throne, His place of rule in what is Israel, what we call Israel.  He will establish His rule and reign there. 

So the question is, in that thousand year period, what distinction is there between Jew and Gentile?  The sort of old line classic dispensationalist’s that we don’t have as much in common with, you know the sort of Scofielian/Chafer/Dallas Theological sort of classis dispensationalism, they would say essentially there‘s going to be like two peoples of God.  In fact Scofield said that.  If you have the Scofield Reference Bible, some of you grew up with that.  He was a classic dispensationalist.  And he said from this point forward even true believers, both Gentile and Jews will be two separate peoples of God.  If I remember right he even said that the Gentile Christians that are the church will be on that satellite city, the New Jerusalem, and all the redeemed Jewish people will live on the planet earth.  We don’t believe that.  We don’t believe that at all and here’s why we don’t believe that.

Turn to Ephesians chapter two.  Paul makes a great point here in Ephesians two that God has done something new. Verse 11, “Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision” which is performed in the flesh by human hands-remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, (made to the patriarchs) having no hope and without God in the world.”  That was what we used to be.  Now watch what happened.  “But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.  For He Himself is our peace,” and I think in that verse, verse 14 ‘by He Himself is our peace’ he means that in sort of a double sense.  Christ has become our peace with God, both whether we are Jew or Gentile, and He’s become the peace between Jew and Gentile.  Notice the second half of verse 14.  “who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that” and here it is “in Himself (in Christ) He might make the two (Uncircumcision/Circumcision, Jew and Gentile, believers) into one new man, (one new entity) thus establishing peace, and He might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross.” There’s the spiritual aspect of His making peace.  So, that’s a very challenging passage, you can go listen to Ephesians chapter 2, it’s on line but the short version is this:  In the church, God has done something new.  He has brought together Jewish believers and Gentile believers and He’s made a new entity.  So that there is this one new man, He calls it, this one new entity in which we are blended together.  That is a reflection of how eternity will be. 

Now the question is what about in the Millennium itself?  What will be the distinctions?  You know we cannot argue the specifics on that.  But I can say the principle is clear and that is if we make it to the Millennium, Jew or Gentile, we’re going to be this one new people of God.  And yes, God is going to manifest His faithfulness to the physical descendants of Abraham as He promised.  But it’s not like it’s going to be class A over here and class B over here.  We have in Christ, in the church been made into one new people of God.  And that will certainly be true throughout eternity and I think it will largely be true throughout the Millennium.  You know what distinctions will be made between Jew and Gentile in the Millennium we really can’t argue specifically.  There are passages that talk about the Gentiles hanging on the coats of the Jewish people and so forth.  But I think that has more to do, not with the all true believers who go into the Millennium, but rather those who are born during that period of time. So I don’t think there is a clear distinction from this point forward.  Although I think God will honor His promises to the ethnic descendants of Abraham.  Okay?  I can’t really be more definitive than that, sorry Sophia, thank you for your question.

I’m Noah Pleck and my question was from your series on Why Romans Matters from one of your sermons, I believe it was verse 5, if I remember right you said that even those who bear the mark of the beast from Revelation 13, God can still save them and my question is why is that and is there any Biblical evidence to support that? 

Yeah, no I think I was dealing with that because I read online that there was a lot of furor that was created by a question that in a Q and A session like this, John MacArthur was asked back twenty years ago, maybe thirty years ago.  And it was creating quite a furor online and it just I read it, I read the question and his answer and it was obvious to me that’s true and so I just wanted to address it and throw it out there because I think it’s so important for us to think like Christians.  Here’s the answer to that question.  Is there anyone on this planet who is an unbeliever who in a metaphorical sense doesn’t bear the mark of the beast?  Okay, is there anyone?  Read Ephesians chapter 2.  I love that passage because Paul describes what we were before Christ.  And he describes what we were in these categories. He says we were spiritually dead. Okay?  No references to God whatsoever.  We were dead because of our trespasses and sins.  We were actually twice dead.  We were born dead in sin and we were dead because of our own acts of rebellion against God.  Then he says that we walked in lockstep with Satan himself.  He specifically refers to him as the prince of the power of the air, and the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience.  I think there he means it’s the attitude, he’s the prince of the attitude that now governs the thinking of unbelievers.  Again, that’s a full message you can go listen to it. 

But the point I think is that every single person is under the control of Satan.  Jesus in John 8 verse 44, says, ‘you are of your father the devil, and the works of your father you will do.’  Every unbeliever is in that position.  So how does a person who is under the influence and power of Satan, which is every unbeliever, ever come out of that power?  And the answer is by a redeeming work of God.  God speaks life; we’ve already talked about that.  By a monergistic work, He speaks life.  He does that now.  There is no indication that that will cease in the Tribulation period. In fact, turn to Revelation chapter 7 verse 9, “After these things I looked, and behold a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;” they’re saying, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne and to the Lamb.”  They’re all worshipping, verse 13, “Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?”  I said to him, “My Lord, you know.”  I don’t know, who are they?  “And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.  For this reason they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.  They will no longer hunger, or thirst, nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”  Here you have a multitude which no one can number who are saved out of that period of time we call the Great Tribulation.  How?  Well, they’re going to be those who come to faith and they share their testimony. They’re the 144,000 witnesses of the previous chapter.  There is even later in the book of Revelation, an angel flying through heaven proclaiming the everlasting gospel.  And so the gospel will still be proclaimed and God will still redeem sinners. He will still bring them out from under the control of Satan and they will wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb. 

And so there is no reason to believe that the sin of taking the mark of the beast is an unpardonable sin.  Jesus said there’s only one sin that unpardonable and that’s blaspheming the Holy Spirit.  That’s the only sin that crosses the line and that I believe, that’s a different question for a different time, that I believe can’t even be committed in our time, nor in that time.  It was for the time of Christ when they saw the Son of God in person, they heard Him teach, they saw His miracles, they knew it was of God; but because they didn’t want to lose their position, they didn’t want to lose their power, they said, ‘oh, He’s doing that by the work of Satan.’  Short of that there is no unpardonable sin; including taking the mark of the beast.

Chas Morse.  I’m going to have to stoop.

No I think, it’ll pick you up, go ahead, you don’t have to stoop.

Umm, this involves, I’ve had this question a number of times from a lot of the young adults that Patti and I work with. And then my wife was also talking to me about this before, but it involves the application of some of the principles that we find in commands in Timothy about the role of women in church.  I know you’ve talked about that recently.  But we have many para-church ministries around and I think that there is a temptation sometimes for us to take the principles that we have instituted in a local church and then fold them over to some of the para-church, like let’s say a woman’s ministry where a woman is in command teaching men let’s say and has a whole auditorium of men and she’s teaching them the Word.  So my question is, in principle like in that Timothy passage how does that apply to that context and many of the other ministries that are out there?  I just wanted to make sure; I just kind of wanted to get your take on that. Because that is a question I get all the time and I’m sure there are people even in this audience that are thinking about that as well.

Yeah, no it is a difficult challenge.  What is clear and most of you were here so I won’t rehearse all of that if you weren’t you can go and listen online a couple of weeks ago I did a message on the role of women in the life of the church.  But let me just say, large picture, First Timothy 2, is Paul says, I don’t permit a woman to do two things in the life and context of the church.  One of those is to teach men.  And the other is to lead men, to be in authority over men in the context of the church.  So the question is, okay that’s clear in the church.  What about, let’s say some women, there’re a couple of evangelical women whose names you would know that teach widely and they are perfectly fine with men being in the audience and they’re even open to having men come and they teach the bible.  They really do teach the true scriptures.  What about that?  Well, I think personally, you know now we’re going beyond the clear instruction of scripture.  That isn’t the church, I understand that.  But I think the spirit of that passage in First Timothy 2, for me, would, I would have a serious problem with that, I would have a serious problem with a couple of evangelical women who have teaching ministries who are perfectly comfortable teaching men.  I think that is certainly in the same framework as what’s being described in First Timothy 2.  Umm, you know obviously the farther away you get from the church and the farther away you get from a spiritual environment, you’re talking in the work place or whatever, then I don’t think we’re talking about that.  But I think the spirit there; I’ll give you an example of where this goes. There is a seminary that I could mention who says look; we don’t believe the scripture allows women to be pastors and to preach.  But we’re going to allow women to come to the seminary to take classes and then we’re even going to allow women to come and preach in chapel to our male students, as long as they do so under the authority of their husbands.  That’s they say in the spirit of First Timothy 2. Now their argument is, this isn’t the church.  We believe First Timothy 2 teaches that it’s inappropriate in the church, but this isn’t the church, this is seminary.  You know I’m sorry, I think that crosses the line, I think that is a violation of the intention Paul had in First Timothy 2.  And that was when it comes to the spiritual life of God’s people within the framework of both the church and the supporting ministries of the church, which a seminary clearly would be; it’s to be this way.  And so I really have a serious problem with that and I also want to say those seminary administrators, do you really believe those guys sitting there are going to make that sort of fine distinction?  You think they’re going to hear a woman preaching to them in chapel and they’re going to go in their churches and someday they’re not going to allow women to preach in their, you know be elders and serve in their churches? Of course not.  That’s going to happen.  It is happening.  And so, frankly I think it’s just another capitulation of the culture.  It’s just another way to go as far as they can and not seem like Neanderthal’s.  You know what?  We need to let the scripture speak and if it paints us with a bad brush in our culture, so be it.  Let God be true and every man a liar.  So I personally I have a serious problem with any, certainly the church, but I think anything close to the framework of ministry that is churchlike or equipping church leaders -  it’s the same thing.  It’s all still in principle what Paul is describing.  Now I think that changes and we can talk about how that changes, as I said in the secular workplace, in other contexts, but I think when you’re talking really close to the mission of the church then I think those principles are still very much in place. 

I think one more, go ahead.

Hi, Marcine, and my question is regarding modesty, more specifically how should we look at it as Christians in our world, but also what is a biblical way to address it? 

Umm, yeah it’s a great question.  And it’s not an easy one, because let’s just be honest.  I mean, scripture is very clear.  Women are to be modest.  First Timothy 2 makes that very clear.  That’s just a principle of scripture in a number of places.  The question is what is modesty?  Well, first of all, it changes culturally.  You know, when I go for example to India.  Women in India, Christian women in India would never think of wearing shorts or wearing pants even.  But they dress so that their midriff shows, when they come to church. This is their clothing.  In their culture it would be immodest for them to wear pants or shorts as some of you have on tonight.  But it’s not immodest as it would be in our culture for their midriff to show, based on their traditional garb.  And so there is let’s just be honest there is a cultural component of modesty.  And that is there’s no question about that.  So what about defining modesty?  Let me recommend a book for you that my wife has read and highly recommended, umm it’s a book on modesty by Tim Challies.  It’s a very balanced approach to modesty and how to, it doesn’t give rules because there are no biblical rules. 

Let me just remind you, I wanted to touch on this anyway, so let me just remind you.  You know we have a tendency as believers to either be to live in sort of license or to be sort of legalists.  To either ignore what the scripture clearly teaches or to add to the scripture.  We have a tendency to fall off on either side. Every moral decision you will ever make falls into one of three categories, every moral decision, including modesty.  One, thou shalt – chapter and verse.  That’s one form of decision, where you can take me to a verse and show me this is what the scripture says.  Modesty as a big picture is in that category. But the specifics of modesty in a given culture are not.  So, thou shalt, chapter and verse.  Second category – thou shalt not, chapter and verse.  The third category encompasses every other moral decision and it’s an issue of conscience, from Romans 14 and while the scripture doesn’t lay out for us the specifics on all of those issues of conscience it does give us a grid.  It gives us a grid in four chapters in the New Testament.  Read Romans 14, read First Corinthians 8 to 10.  Those chapters are about how to decide when it comes to the issues of conscience.  The fact that you can doesn’t mean you should and Paul is very clear about that as he lays out the principles by which we’re to make those decisions. 

And so that’s what I would urge you to do in terms of this issue. Is look at those passages, look and listen to the wise council of godly women, don’t take their council as scripture because it’s not, unless they can point you to chapter and verse, but then you have to make a decision before the Lord.  And I can tell you how it flushes out at, pardon the pun, in our household. Umm, you know with my daughters and my wife as we talk about these issues.  You know our standard, and it is my standard may not be your standard, but I have to go by my conscience in my household.  I tell my kids; look as long as you’re under my authority then you have to live by my conscience.  Someday you will have to live by your conscience before the Lord on these issues that aren’t clearly spelled out in scripture.  Is that like a sign, I’m supposed to be done?  The light just went out; I think I’m going too long.  And so you will have to live by, your kids will one day have to live by their conscience before the Lord on those issues the scripture doesn’t clearly address.  But while they’re in my home, eating my food, living under my shelter my conscience decides.  But we try to lay down some general guidelines so that when our kids are out on their own they understand at least the big picture of modesty. 

In our culture modesty is defined in a couple of ways.  It shouldn’t be too low, the dress shouldn’t be too high, and it shouldn’t be too tight.  And we’ve had to add a fourth one because of the trend changed in recent years, it shouldn’t be see through.  Okay? That, I mean in a large picture, in our culture, that defines modesty.  Now, you know where you draw that line of what’s too low, or what’s too high, or what’s too tight, that is between, kids if you’re in your parents’ home it’s their conscience that decides that.  Some day you will have to decide before the Lord and I hope you’ll decide not based on what’s going on around you but based on what honors the Lord.  But it is a conscience issue and you will give an account, Romans 14 says to the Lord for how you make those decisions.  And so there’s no sort of cut and dried – this is modesty.  But in our culture those are the basic principles that our family goes by and again it’s, the big picture is keep it where it belongs.  It’s a Romans 14 issue.  Not modesty, but exactly how do define modesty in our culture.  And so, you have to make that call for your family and by the way the principles of Romans 14 say you don’t look down on the decisions other people make in these categories.  The scripture doesn’t clearly address it, you don’t sit in judgment on that person, you have to allow them to make that determination unless you’re in a place of spiritual influence in their lives and you feel you need to address because you feel like they’ve crossed the line.  But be careful; be careful because we’re all tempted to draw the line with our standards and not with the scripture.  So it’s really important to exercise caution in how you do that.  Okay? Well that’s a very short version of that but hopefully it will help in some way.

Well thank you for great questions, I think I’ve taken longer than I intended to tonight but those were good questions.  Let’s pray together, Seth you want to come up and lead us in a closing song after I pray?  Great, let’s pray.

Father thank You so much for the time we’ve spent together tonight. Thank You for Your word for how definitive it is.  Thank You that even when You haven’t clearly spoken about what we ought to do You’ve given us a grid.  You’ve given us Romans 14, You’ve given us First Corinthians 8 to 10 to help us decide, to help us work through those issues.  Father we’re so grateful that You have given us in the scripture all things that pertain to life and godliness.  Take our time together tonight our study of various issues and use them for our good and our benefit, we pray in Jesus’ name.  Amen.

One other note about that last question, go online if you’re interested in issues of conscience, I did four messages on Romans 14, it’s going to be a while before we get there currently, so go online listen to the four messages on Romans 14, it’s called Hard Call, When the Bible Doesn’t Speak.  So, I hope that will be a help to you.